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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| tttompatz wrote: |
I think you missed the point.
It is NOT what the employers want.
It is NOT what the clients want.
It is NOT what makes a "better teacher".
It IS what is mandated by law in more and more countries and soon will be all countries in Asia. |
If it's what gov'ts insist on and not necessarily what everyone else does then doesn't it suggest education serves itself more than society--the claim I made? 'Mandated by law' and 'enforced' are not the same. Jaywalking is illegal but not enforced. I can't speak for other Asian countries but:
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Regulations and guidelines governing foreign teachers in China are established by the State Administration for Foreign Expert Affairs (SAFEA). In regard to education and experience requirements, the SAFEA states: �The foreign educational expert should hold a minimum of a bachelor's degree and more than two years of experience."
Two important points need to be stressed here: First, the SAFEA uses the character for the auxiliary verb �should,� as opposed to �must,� and that the SAFEA�s guidelines are just that: Provincial leaders are free to interpret and arbitrarily enforce each guideline as they see fit. Consequently, while one province may insist on a bachelor�s degree as a condition for issuing a work certificate and a foreign expert certificate (FEC), another may only require an EFL teaching credential, e.g., TEFL, TOESL, CELTA, etc., while others require none of the above. To further complicate matters, requirements within provinces and municipalities often change from time to time and typically without notice: What is true today in China may very likely not be true tomorrow.
The best answer to the question �Does one need a college degree to teach English in China� is �it all depends on the province and municipality in question and the sensibilities du jour of the local officials.� Aside from the legalities involved, there are far more practical and useful questions one could ask, such as �Do foreign teachers with advanced degrees receive better paying jobs and do they report higher levels of overall satisfaction with their teaching positions and lives in China than do their non-degreed counterparts?�
The Empirical Evidence
In a study of 432 foreign teachers in China, we found that about 51 percent held a three or four year bachelor�s degree, approximately 34 percent were teaching with advanced degrees (master�s or doctoral level), and just under 15 percent were teaching with either a high school diploma or some post-secondary degree (A.A. or A.S.) or vocational school diploma. |
How many of you have been asked to submit transcripts or provide your college's registrar contact info... or that of your TEFL cert issuer? I agree, it would be nice but it aint about to happen anytime soon. Why? Because language teaching isn't considered a profession--not by the public nor by the industry. |
Just because enforcement is currently lax doesn't mean it will stay that way.
The writing is on the wall.
Catch up or get left out.
Pick one.
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:15 am Post subject: |
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It's understandable why the above poster feels so strongly about this. No one with $X0,000 in student loans wants to consider such an investment largely irrelevant to what they're doing. But is it not wishful thinking that this industry will suddenly regulate by checking references and requesting college transcripts. With no regulatory body to set and uphold standards for schools or teachers (read the 'blacklist' thread) and no formal membership alliances coes ELT even qualify as a profession? When's the last time someone referenced something in a trade journal? They exist for other occupations--even dog grooming--but like I maintain, there's a rift between ELT publishers, academia and us.
I do have a degree and honors credits toward a 2nd. Actually, I thought I was skimping when I took the 1 month TESL when a 6 mo. course was available. If this were a profession then if you wanted to teach pre-k for example, wouldn't employers expect at least a dev psych credit? But who asks for that? Even B.Ed grads feel to be competitive in the labor market, they need 'additional qualifying' courses in spec. ed or some other aspect of education. But who gets turned down to teach business English specifically because there degree was in fine arts? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| I do have a degree and honors credits toward a 2nd. Actually, I thought I was skimping when I took the 1 month TESL when a 6 mo. course was available. If this were a profession then if you wanted to teach pre-k for example, wouldn't employers expect at least a dev psych credit? |
Clarify something. When you say "teach pre-K", do you mean teach them only some English lessons (something that has little requirement for a degree) or teach them everything else a daycare/pre-K teacher from that country would teach (obviously something that needs more training and education, not to mention language ability).
| Quote: |
| Even B.Ed grads feel to be competitive in the labor market, they need 'additional qualifying' courses in spec. ed or some other aspect of education. But who gets turned down to teach business English specifically because there degree was in fine arts? |
It has been my experience that business English agencies want people who have direct work experience in the field of their clients. That may also include a related degree. |
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timothypfox
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 492
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:43 am Post subject: |
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I would far rather have a textbook than none at all. Too much emphasis on a group-oriented learner-centered approach to teaching ESL put me in a situation where I used no textbook teaching ESL kids at a special ed school for 4.5 years (5 to 6 hours of teaching a day)! My Sundays were generally killed planning lessons with only a vague pacing guide and a few materials mustered from the assistant principal.
[But, it is probably the number crunching that killed me most working in NYC!]
If there is a problem in Japan the high school where I work now, it is that the textbooks are all grammar-based passive textbooks that allow limited interaction. My writing book Pro-Vision is a perfect example. Even my conversation book for the high school Birdland is poor in this regard. Most of the exercises in Birdland are listening exercises. However, grammar translation continues to appear on standardized tests, and the Eiken has a very large listening section .... so it goes on....
Longman books such as Focus on Grammar were a nice integration of skills and learning styles at language schools I worked at in New York. Even the old Interchange books had the right idea. My junior high does use a nice book - Passport 1 and 2.
Academic research I read at graduate school seemed to suggest the trend was going towards group-based learning in the US. Japan in contrast seems stuck with the grammar-translation approach meaning it is an onerous task to have a conversation class without a textbook.
And, yes I am contradicting myself! The group-centered approach is being taken too far in New York public school, but Japanese approach to ESL teaching needs to be much more group-centred... |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Clarify something. When you say "teach pre-K", do you mean teach them only some English lessons (something that has little requirement for a degree) ...? |
Yes, only English but with the help of a local. This is common in China. But here's where I'm going to confound bharrell once again. I'd argue teaching pre-schoolers (and young children)--if it's going to be teaching and not just daycare--should require far more specialized training than is currently the norm, even more than for business English. But you're right, an ESP course or advanced business English requires someone with industry knowledge (via a degree) or work experience.
@timothypfox: I agree. A good textbook, like a map, helps chart the course of study students can refer to, but all too often, the map becomes the destination. Currently, I'm planning for my adult beginners during class time to interview others overseas using Skype. I try to selectively add to and recycle as much of the vocabulary and expressions of a course as possible--introducing numerous random expressions each class that you never help students activate, then and in future, isn't going to improve their self-confidence.
Your impressions about ELT in Japan match mine. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| timothypfox wrote: |
| The group-centered approach is being taken too far in New York public school, but Japanese approach to ESL teaching needs to be much more group-centred... |
This is so typical of progress in the west, isn't it--the pendulum approach. Research comes out warning us about cholesterol in butter and eggs so everyone switches to margarine. Then we hear about the dangers of saturated fats in margarine so everyone switches back to butter again. I just found out I'm living in a Shangrila of sorts--a small city an hr East of Nanjing. There are at least 6 people here born before 1910. Asked about the secret to their longevity, they mention moderation and not letting things annoy them. I'm sure they don't pay attention to research findings on longevity. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
Clarify something. When you say "teach pre-K", do you mean teach them only some English lessons (something that has little requirement for a degree) ...? |
Yes, only English but with the help of a local. This is common in China.
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Here in Japan that is called ALT work. Quite common. As far as I know, there are no requirements for any dev. psych. courses. ALTs are expected to work with the homeroom teachers to present the lessons. Unfortunately, even though I suspect the Japanese HR teachers have had such courses, they are woefully weak in English ability, so often the ALT ends up teaching solo with the HR teacher on the sidelines.
They also do not see the same students more than once a month! Fifth and sixth graders got more (regular) contact starting only in the 2011-12 year. Japan is VERY slow to progress.
So, with that in mind, your sensible ideal of needing "far more specialized training" is falling on deaf ears with the J government. Here, many ALTs are considered edutainers, not educators, and there are handcuffs on them to prevent serious education from happening. For example (besides what I already wrote), I think ALTs are not supposed to get any direction from the schools or BOE where they are dispatched. Recent law for the dispatched. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| I suspect the Japanese HR teachers have had such (dev psych) courses |
Here in China, if teachers have had such courses, they certainly didn't retain anything from them nor does education in general. I suspect the same is true for Japan as I'd written on my Japan forum thread. Education is not the science it is in the west.
If you want further evidence that ELT publishers are ignorant of the needs of students, take a look at Longman's 'online dictionary' videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7104-U3Jg-A&feature=autoplay&list=UUr3gHkXCbeZpR7KJNqwxxCg&lf=plcp&playnext=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlUfwb_BD58&feature=BFa&list=UUr3gHkXCbeZpR7KJNqwxxCg&lf=plcp
Do students really need such videos to understand the concept of boil and windy when a simple graphic can suffice? My beginners can understand and use windy, no problem but would misunderstand the point and language of the video. McLuhan used the metaphor of the rear-view mirror to describe retrogressive efforts to have new media do the job of the old--it's even part of our language: horseless carriage, electronic mail, etc. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Just read fluffyhamster's Utility of Young Learner Training thread questioning the value of YL CELTA 'extension':
| fluffyhamster wrote: |
What tttompatz has said several times now (that adult-focused certs are "virtually useless when it comes to teaching kids", with the implication being that one should do at least the YL extension to the CELTA in order to become minimally qualified in the YL field) got me thinking:
1) Is the CELTA YL extension actually any good? (My suspicion is that it's an even more dumbed-down form of teacher training). I haven't read much if any feedback on this on the forums. |
The only response so far: "The YL extension here (in Canada) is useless."
Now why doesn't that surprise me? How many of us actually teach children, or have vowed never again? Not even my 100 hr TEFL course devoted much more than an hour to it. If it's just common sense as fluffy asks, what's not common sense about teaching adults? |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| tttompatz wrote: |
I think you missed the point.
It is NOT what the employers want.
It is NOT what the clients want.
It is NOT what makes a "better teacher".
It (a degree) IS what is mandated by law in more and more countries and soon will be all countries in Asia. |
Just got your point--it's all about credentials, not qualifications:
| tttompatz wrote: |
| At this point a CELTA/DELTA would be 2 steps backward from your B.Ed TESOL combo, especially looking at your 3 market choices. |
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