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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| waxwing wrote: |
Quite so.
But since foreigners don't have any rights or voice in this country, who cares?
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Quite a few people still don't seem to understand that foreigners are being brought into the Chinese social security system. It's not some new "foreigner tax". I don't know about your country, but foreigners have to pay into the social security system in my country, and there is an upper limit on contributions just like China's system.
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Here's an interesting thought - suppose your salary is 13K or whatever, above the ceiling - every month you are putting in 1K and your employer is putting in 4K. I wonder how much of that 5K per month will ever be put back to you, in terms of retirement/pension (ha ha) or paid back when you leave? |
You're supposed to get back the pension contributions, so about 2.5k of each months contributions from the example you put forward. Seeing as the system hasn't even started, we'll have to wait to see if you really can get the money back. I'd think it will be a lot easier in Beijing and Shanghai than in Buttzhou. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| auchtermuchty wrote: |
| waxwing wrote: |
Quite so.
But since foreigners don't have any rights or voice in this country, who cares?
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Quite a few people still don't seem to understand that foreigners are being brought into the Chinese social security system. It's not some new "foreigner tax". I don't know about your country, but foreigners have to pay into the social security system in my country, and there is an upper limit on contributions just like China's system. |
Forgive my poor knowledge of the social security system in western countries, but do foreigners pay more in taxes there? It seems foreign workers, who have lower incomes, will pay a bit more than local workers in China. I believe that many FTs understand the plan to bring foreigners into this system, although most that have experienced the country know it is difficult to trust. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| auchtermuchty wrote: |
| Quote: |
Here's an interesting thought - suppose your salary is 13K or whatever, above the ceiling - every month you are putting in 1K and your employer is putting in 4K. I wonder how much of that 5K per month will ever be put back to you, in terms of retirement/pension (ha ha) or paid back when you leave? |
You're supposed to get back the pension contributions, so about 2.5k of each months contributions from the example you put forward. Seeing as the system hasn't even started, we'll have to wait to see if you really can get the money back. I'd think it will be a lot easier in Beijing and Shanghai than in Buttzhou. |
Are you telling us that a teacher on 13K monthly, that'll pay 1K with his/her employer 4K in montly taxes, will collect about 2.5K for each month? Am I supposed to collect a part of the employer's contribution too?
Getting the money back is truly the issue and it has been discussed on before. Perhaps, this is the reason why FTs do not want to understand. |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| Forgive my poor knowledge of the social security system in western countries, but do foreigners pay more in taxes there? It seems foreign workers, who have lower incomes, will pay a bit more than local workers in China. I believe that many FTs understand the plan to bring foreigners into this system, although most that have experienced the country know it is difficult to trust. |
In America, foreigners pay the same taxes as us locals.
This seems more and more like a "get out!" message from Beijing. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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the way it works, if it gets enforced nationwide goes like this:
employee pays 11% (of which 8-9%) is refundable pension dues.
employer kicks in 37%.
the smallest chucks coming out of that 11% are for health insurance
(not often used by ex-pats, with their own coverage), and for
unemployment (un-claimable by ex-pats whom's visas are tied
to employment). doesn't matter, this part is insignificant, and seems
to be there only to show that the whole deal is some sort of benefit
to us foreign workers.
the biggest chunk is the pension. the number of foreigners allowed
to retire in china is very small. i suspect the mechanism for claiming
pension from outside china will be unworkable by design.
which means most/all will request a refund on their way out. assuming
this mechanism works, beijing will still be left with 37% of our
salaries going into the pension system (allegedly) with NO way for
us or the schools to claim a refund.
where is that 37% really going? |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps, stock, military/space research, weapons |
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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| Forgive my poor knowledge of the social security system in western countries, but do foreigners pay more in taxes there? It seems foreign workers, who have lower incomes, will pay a bit more than local workers in China. I believe that many FTs understand the plan to bring foreigners into this system, although most that have experienced the country know it is difficult to trust. |
Please provide some evidence that foreigners will pay more in social security taxes than a local on the same wage. There is no difference. I believe the foreigner will continue to pay slightly less income tax than the local on the same wage, as our tax free allowance is a bit larger. |
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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
the way it works, if it gets enforced nationwide goes like this:
employee pays 11% (of which 8-9%) is refundable pension dues.
employer kicks in 37%.
the smallest chucks coming out of that 11% are for health insurance
(not often used by ex-pats, with their own coverage), and for
unemployment (un-claimable by ex-pats whom's visas are tied
to employment). doesn't matter, this part is insignificant, and seems
to be there only to show that the whole deal is some sort of benefit
to us foreign workers.
the biggest chunk is the pension. the number of foreigners allowed
to retire in china is very small. i suspect the mechanism for claiming
pension from outside china will be unworkable by design.
which means most/all will request a refund on their way out. assuming
this mechanism works, beijing will still be left with 37% of our
salaries going into the pension system (allegedly) with NO way for
us or the schools to claim a refund.
where is that 37% really going? |
The employer contribution is around 15-20% for pension and the rest goes for medical coverage and other insurance. |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| auchtermuchty wrote: |
Quite a few people still don't seem to understand that foreigners are being brought into the Chinese social security system. |
LOL get a clue buddy. This is a flagrant cash grab by the Chinese government. No one is ever going to get any benefits from it and it makes it exorbitant to hire foreigners. |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| auchtermuchty wrote: |
Please provide some evidence that foreigners will pay more in social security taxes than a local on the same wage. There is no difference. I believe the foreigner will continue to pay slightly less income tax than the local on the same wage, as our tax free allowance is a bit larger. |
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304563104576357250866060010.html
I think this is what you're looking for. See the graph included in the article. It clearly shows foreigners will pay more than a local with the same earnings, about 10% more. Employers pay about 70% more for foreign employees under the new tax scheme.
Could this be used to fund new Audis and California real estate? Of course not, don't be so cynical. They will use it to help fund benefits for Chinese people.
You might assess the tax rates based on expected, attainable and useful benefits. (But don't. In my opinion it looks bad.) What is the process to collect your pension when you leave? Who knows, right? Do you think it will be easy? Will you stay 15 years to collect the benefits? When you retire, who will you work for to provide your visa? And will they deny your pension based on your employment? <snicker>
I believe the vast majority of FTs won't retire here and in that case this money is likely wasted.
Too many negative things to consider here. |
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shadowrider
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Everything will be all right. You can trust them. They are the from the government, and they are here to help. |
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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
LOL get a clue buddy. This is a flagrant cash grab by the Chinese government. No one is ever going to get any benefits from it and it makes it exorbitant to hire foreigners. |
I agree that it's a cash grab by the government.
Unlike you, I don't know whether anyone will be able to get any benefits from it. |
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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:07 am Post subject: |
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another question.....if 'they' haven't started collecting by june,
and we sign another contract......when they do start deductions
will it be retroactive to october 2011, or from the beginning of
the new annual contract? would they be going back to former
employers to grab cash? |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Yes if you use the link directly it says subscribers only.
Instead, google "china considers new tax for foreigners wsj", see the chart and do the math. The rates are not special aside from the fact that they are higher than rates for locals.
Yes, all the articles you cited are very nice, harmonious. Happy every day. Do you think they will tell you the foreigner tax is greater than the local tax? Why would they raise that issue, to spawn objections?
Come on man, call a spade a spade for goodness' sake.
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