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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Guerciotti wrote: |
Yes if you use the link directly it says subscribers only.
Instead, google "china considers new tax for foreigners wsj",
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Thanks. That worked.
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see the chart and do the math. The rates are not special aside from the fact that they are higher than rates for locals.
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Hmm. You sure? I think you need to read it again. Absolutely nothing about different rates for foreigners. I'll help out here: individual means you; company means the business employing you.
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Yes, all the articles you cited are very nice, harmonious. Happy every day. Do you think they will tell you the foreigner tax is greater than the local tax? Why would they raise that issue, to spawn objections?
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China Briefing is run by foreigners. It's for foreign businesses in China that want to know what is really happening, not what the "harmonious" local media say.
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Come on man, call a spade a spade for goodness' sake.
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How about: You can't read graphs!  |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:40 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, I considered the employer's tax rate as well as the employees. My mistake.
The rates are the same.
Good luck collecting! |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| auchtermuchty wrote: |
| igorG wrote: |
| Forgive my poor knowledge of the social security system in western countries, but do foreigners pay more in taxes there? It seems foreign workers, who have lower incomes, will pay a bit more than local workers in China. I believe that many FTs understand the plan to bring foreigners into this system, although most that have experienced the country know it is difficult to trust. |
Please provide some evidence that foreigners will pay more in social security taxes than a local on the same wage. There is no difference. I believe the foreigner will continue to pay slightly less income tax than the local on the same wage, as our tax free allowance is a bit larger. |
You might be right. According to my poor calculations, the difference is minimal.
Foreign worker 7,000 with 15% of 2,200 + 11% of 7,000
Chinese worker 7,000 with 15% of 3,500
Foreign worker 12,000 with 20% of 7,200 + 11% of 12,000
Chinese worker 12,000 with 20% of 8,500
Mind the taxable income for locals from 3,500 and foreigners from 4,800. |
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shadowrider
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:17 am Post subject: |
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But differing tax rates are not the issue. With a select few here that will retire here all the money we put in is lost. Collection social tax pensions even from other countries that it was earned in is rather difficult. Maybe the EU is one difference...
And no mention what Chinese employers pay for their Chinese workers. Its probably not 37%. |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| shadowrider wrote: |
But differing tax rates are not the issue. With a select few here that will retire here all the money we put in is lost. Collection social tax pensions even from other countries that it was earned in is rather difficult. Maybe the EU is one difference...
And no mention what Chinese employers pay for their Chinese workers. Its probably not 37%. |
I agree, the point is not the tax rate.
Based only on the few cities I have numbers for it varies in total from 27% to 36% but I agree with you, our contributions whether by individuals or employers are either unrecoverable (employer's contribution) or possibly difficult to recover. I imagine an FT on his way out, never to return, with an expiring residence permit trying to get his pension contributions. If they - whoever they are - simply wait the FT must go home without or use tourist visas to stay and fight the reimbursement process. Just think of it as a contribution to China.
Hopefully more countries will sign agreements with China to obviate this law but either way I'm sure it will all work out well in the end. |
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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| shadowrider wrote: |
| But differing tax rates are not the issue. With a select few here that will retire here all the money we put in is lost. Collection social tax pensions even from other countries that it was earned in is rather difficult. Maybe the EU is one difference... |
You are supposed to be able to collect the contributions if and when you leave China, in the same way you can do it when you leave South Korea. Nobody knows if that will work in practice as the system hasn't started yet. That means that at this stage no-one can say we will be no worse off, and no-one can say we will lose all the money.
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And no mention what Chinese employers pay for their Chinese workers. Its probably not 37%. |
Jeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzz.
The figures in the chart guerciotti linked to are the figures for Chinese people and their employers. The 37% bandied about is the figure Chinese employers pay (in some areas - it varies regionally). There are no other figures to go on. We (and our employers) will have to participate in this system. How hard is this to understand? Why is it beyond the wit of so many? |
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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
You might be right. According to my poor calculations, the difference is minimal.
Foreign worker 7,000 with 15% of 2,200 + 11% of 7,000
Chinese worker 7,000 with 15% of 3,500
Foreign worker 12,000 with 20% of 7,200 + 11% of 12,000
Chinese worker 12,000 with 20% of 8,500
Mind the taxable income for locals from 3,500 and foreigners from 4,800. |
I think I have just wet myself. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Your cocky and erratic participation on this topic is reprehensible. FTs are worried for some really good reasons. It's alright if you cannot see them although it's pretty lousy to p*ss on the brains of people that work far away from their homes and in a country of a leadership that most certainly does not deserve the faith you are propagating.
This new tax is to vacate some positions and so to offer more opportunities to local professionals. The fact that without much of a preparation the system has blindly put the tax into an effect indicates that foreign work force is respected little. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't piss on my brains, man! |
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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
.... the faith you are propagating.
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I'm propagating nothing at all, unlike many posters on this thread.
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| The fact that without much of a preparation the system has blindly put the tax into an effect indicates that foreign work force is respected little. |
On this we are entirely in agreement. It's a pity that so many red herrings are created that deflect from the real issues. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't say pissing on the brains, more like pissing on the assumptions/conclusions drawn by many without any evidence. None of us can be sure how this will play out.
It wouldn't surprise me if it is impossible to reclaim the money, but it wouldn't surprise me if it becomes common for people to get the money when leaving. If you asked me a few years ago I would have thought the whole idea of this tax was impossible (still doubting its nation-wide implementation). |
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shadowrider
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
I wouldn't say pissing on the brains, more like pissing on the assumptions/conclusions drawn by many without any evidence. None of us can be sure how this will play out.
It wouldn't surprise me if it is impossible to reclaim the money, but it wouldn't surprise me if it becomes common for people to get the money when leaving. If you asked me a few years ago I would have thought the whole idea of this tax was impossible (still doubting its nation-wide implementation). |
Evidence? several of us here are having these bloody taxes stolen from us every month as it is as reported in this forum and elsewhere like shanghai expat.
After several complaints to the school about this and (more than) several requests prior to this happening being unanswered, the only choices is to take it (basically working for 1.5 months for free) or try to file a contract dispute (and raise my head wack-a-mole style) and forget about a contract renewal, or pull a runner and forget about China in the future. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| shadowrider wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
I wouldn't say pissing on the brains, more like pissing on the assumptions/conclusions drawn by many without any evidence. None of us can be sure how this will play out.
It wouldn't surprise me if it is impossible to reclaim the money, but it wouldn't surprise me if it becomes common for people to get the money when leaving. If you asked me a few years ago I would have thought the whole idea of this tax was impossible (still doubting its nation-wide implementation). |
Evidence? several of us here are having these bloody taxes stolen from us every month as it is as reported in this forum and elsewhere like shanghai expat.
After several complaints to the school about this and (more than) several requests prior to this happening being unanswered, the only choices is to take it (basically working for 1.5 months for free) or try to file a contract dispute (and raise my head wack-a-mole style) and forget about a contract renewal, or pull a runner and forget about China in the future. |
In what way does your story show that you will not be able to reclaim what you paid in? |
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shadowrider
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| shadowrider wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
I wouldn't say pissing on the brains, more like pissing on the assumptions/conclusions drawn by many without any evidence. None of us can be sure how this will play out.
It wouldn't surprise me if it is impossible to reclaim the money, but it wouldn't surprise me if it becomes common for people to get the money when leaving. If you asked me a few years ago I would have thought the whole idea of this tax was impossible (still doubting its nation-wide implementation). |
Evidence? several of us here are having these bloody taxes stolen from us every month as it is as reported in this forum and elsewhere like shanghai expat.
After several complaints to the school about this and (more than) several requests prior to this happening being unanswered, the only choices is to take it (basically working for 1.5 months for free) or try to file a contract dispute (and raise my head wack-a-mole style) and forget about a contract renewal, or pull a runner and forget about China in the future. |
In what way does your story show that you will not be able to reclaim what you paid in? |
You are FAR more trusting of the Chinese Government than 99.999% of the rest of the world, including Chinese-based legal experts. |
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auchtermuchty
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| shadowrider wrote: |
Evidence? several of us here are having these bloody taxes stolen from us every month as it is as reported in this forum and elsewhere like shanghai expat.
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No-one is saying these taxes will not be collected. IgorG says foreigners will have to pay a different, higher rate of social taxes than locals. This is not true.
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In what way does your story show that you will not be able to reclaim what you paid in? |
You are FAR more trusting of the Chinese Government than 99.999% of the rest of the world, including Chinese-based legal experts. |
He's not trusting at all. He's just pointing out your story doesn't offer any evidence to prove your point, yet you say (above) there is a lot of evidence. |
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