Site Search:
 
Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Grammar question for the linguists (conjunctions)
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mike_2007,

OK, got me there Very Happy. Did you google? And now, a sentence starting with "Than", please. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike_2007



Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Bucharest, Romania

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

Of course I Googled Smile I came up with a few of my own initially, but I thought I'd see if the constructions were used in written texts so search a couple of newspapers.

I'm stuck on than, though. I thought perhaps we could start a sentence along the lines of 'than this there is but...', but it sounds very pompous and Byronesque and I suppose is prepositional rather than conjunctional. Isn't there some kind of Norse god called Than? 'Than raised his powerful hammer and smited the Danes'? Ok, I give up. Than my best efforts to you more I cannot offer.

Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
AGoodStory



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

'Than raised his powerful hammer and smited the Danes'? Ok, I give up. Than my best efforts to you more I cannot offer.




I think Mike has a promising future in writing ahead of him! (So much better than having a promising future behind him.) Very Happy

.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mike_2007,

Smote, I think Very Happy Very Happy. I'm glad to see that you're not taking this any more seriously than I am. It's a very complex subject and there's no need to compound it by heated argument. Perhaps there's no simple answer. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy.

As far as gods go (and often they go way too far) there is Thanatos, the god of Death. To his friends, he's simply Than - except, of course, that he HAS no friends. Very Happy

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ryan1981



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the feedback!

PC Parrot�s response gives me something tangible to work with, although I still can�t say I necessarily agree with the semantics of it.

It appears I might not be completely alone on this point.

Anyway� I guess I�ll just have to get over it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scrog_420



Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 47
Location: State of Jefferson

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Grammar question for the linguists (conjunctions) Reply with quote

ryan1981 wrote:

I speak English, for I�m an English man.
I speak English, as I�m an English man.
I speak English, because I�m an English man.
I don't speak English, though I'm an English man.


For is indeed an archaic coordinating conjunction, which is why you cannot reverse the clauses (though good writers will boldly start a sentence with and or but).

But because as, because and though are subordinating conjunctions, it is possible to reverse the clauses.

And you've got your punctuation wrong. Commas are necessary only when the dependent clause precedes the independent clause:

I speak English as I�m an English man.
I speak English because I�m an English man.
I don't speak English though I'm an English man.

but

As I�m an English man, I speak English.
Because I�m an English man, I speak English.
Though I'm an American, I know a bit about English grammar.

And isn't Englishman one word?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Mad Hatter



Joined: 16 May 2010
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget conjunctions, one idea one sentence.

I can't believe I'm reading self-proclaimed experts littering their posts with little yellow faces.

If you can't make your point using the tools provided by the English language, how, in God's name, do you expect anyone to take you seriously?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear The Mad Hatter,

"Forget conjunctions, one idea one sentence. "

Actually, that's two ideas. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

"I can't believe I'm reading self-proclaimed experts littering their posts with little yellow faces."

Racist remarks are discouraged on these forums. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

"If you can't make your point using the tools provided by the English language, how, in God's name, do you expect anyone to take you seriously?"


"I'm glad to see that you're not taking this any more seriously than I am"

Are you serious? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Mad Hatter



Joined: 16 May 2010
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, now I get it.

I've just looked at your number of posts.

You're the village one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear The Mad Hatter,

Yup, these days jobs are hard to find, so I'm the village idiot. Someday, I aspire to attain your lofty position: world idiot. But I know I've got a long way to go Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy.

Regards
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scrog_420



Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 47
Location: State of Jefferson

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet another interesting thread devolves into juvenile babbling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear scrog_420,

What can you do? There are simply too many idiots around.

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ryan1981



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scrog_420,

Quote:
And you've got your punctuation wrong. Commas are necessary only when the dependent clause precedes the independent clause


I don�t recall saying they were necessary.

Quote:
I don't speak English though I'm an English man.


Actually, it is quite common to use a comma before the dependent clause to emphasize contrast.

Quote:
And isn't Englishman one word?


I guess Englishman would be preferable here, but are you suggesting that English can�t be used as an adjective?

You do realize you added very little in the way of new information while still managing to come across as rather pompous and pedantic?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
antonia v



Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, it is quite common to use a comma before the dependent clause to emphasize contrast.


"Emphasize contrast"? You just made that up, didn't you. Common is not the same as correct. It's hard to admit that you are wrong, isn't it? A lot easier to accuse those who point out that you're wrong of being "pompous and pedantic". But you are wrong and scrog is right.

Dave's is full of pronouncements such as this by supposed teachers who haven't got a clue--they just make stuff up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear antonia v,

I wouldn't say "it's common", but I would say it's "not uncommon". I've certainly come across it in my reading fairly frequently.

My opinion is that while the comma after an introductory adverb dependent clause is "mandatory", using a comma before a closing adverb dependent clause is a matter of writer's choice (i.e. does the writer want the reader to take a very slight pause before continuing to read).

"The correct punctuation is either He does well in English although he prefers math to English (no comma at all) or He does well in English, although he prefers math to English (comma between the independent clause and the dependent clause but still no comma after although. (This is an example of an instance in which we have an option whether to set off the closing dependent clause with a comma. If we want to give a little more emphasis to the contrast expressed by the although clause, we may opt for using the comma.)"

http://www.grammarmudge.cityslide.com/articles/article/2569239/36239.htm

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Teaching Jobs in China
Teaching Jobs in China