Job Discussion Forums

[wangdaning]

The poll should explain itself. Personally, I think some of the methods treat students too much like children, even though A is for adults. If I were studying a foreign language and got this approach, I think I would stop paying.

[spiral78]

I'm not going to vote, because my answer would be 'yes and no,' depending on the language and the context.

I'd probably be OK with it at lower levels of 'my' new language, honestly, but as I progressed, I'd most likely want something more flexible and nuanced.

However, I'd argue that the people on Dave's being mostly teachers with some experience are not typical language students and that we have a somewhat different perspective on learning - I think that many of us know more than a newly certified teacher, and would therefore expect more in our own lessons.

CELTA and equivalent courses are meant to get a new teacher started - it's really the bare basics - that's all that's reasonable to cover in such a short time. There are many, many more tools in the boxes of more experienced teachers, particularly those with more qualifications.

[LongShiKong]

Since I haven't done a CELTA, I can't respond. Yours is the first thread I've critical of the industry standard TEFL intro course. How, in your view does the 'CELTA method' treat adults too much like children?

I'm assuming you're aware that games, songs, chants, imaginative role-playing, and TPR activities are used primarily for their effectiveness, not just because they appeal to children. I know many adults who only study but never learn English because such methods are beyond them.

In response to what I said about using animal flashcard identification as a lead-in to a placement interview on my 'assessment' thread someone stated "Using material which was designed for kids when dealing with adults is a big no-no." Guess I should've added that my (own) flashcards aren't the standard kitsch so common in this industry.

[spiral78]

CELTA and equivalent courses don't necessarily recommend games, songs, or chants. These are clearly not appropriate for all audiences, and I have simply NEVER used any such tools in my nearly 15 years in teaching. Role plays can be business-related, pragmatic, and need not be 'imaginative' - many adult students have little patience with unrealistic imaginative tasks (though some genuinely enjoy them, particularly if they are asked to give advice in fictional situations ).

I think the OP is referring to the PPP approach (present, practice, produce) which is among the basic tools presented on introductory courses. It's quite limited because it is based on the teacher's predicting that a given item (be it structural or functional) will be 'activated' by its presentation and practice. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, wangdaning!

PPP is one tool in a teacher's array of approaches to teaching/learning; most introductory courses focus on it as a starting point because it reflects many of the 'basics' that ELT research has found to be relatively effective.

[Jbhughes]

[sharter]

I have to say that I've never believed in total immersion and this stems from my own experience learning French. I took my O-level French a year early and got a straight A. My teahcer spoke English in class but French when he needed to. We practised all the skills equally in a student centred way. I did my A/O level a year later, having been taught by a guy who ONLY spoke French in class and my grade dropped to a C. Happily it recovered at A-level with another teacher who spoke French when he needed to.

PPP is dated and most TEFL (usually self-proclaimed) gurus will tell you this. However, when you have students who are basically illiterate, (read low level Arabs), there isn't a lot else you can do.

Back in the normal world I like team teaching with a non-native speaker. It just makes it a whole lot easier when a Pole can explain the Present Perfect in Polish to students who don't have that tense in their own language for example. Concept checking questions can be like a can of worms with some students.

Basically, TEFL is continually trying to re-invent the wheel, so I'd use whatever works with your particular set of students.

[Sashadroogie]

What's the 'CELTA method' exactly, anyone?

[Kofola]

[fluffyhamster]

My definition of the CELTA method: Take one raw ELT textbook, extract part of its skeleton (i.e. the bare bones of a unit or lesson), slap on a few twigs, berries, fig leaves and skanky bits of meat you've rummaged from elsewhere, bung it into an unheated oven and half-bake on gas mark 1 for 20 minutes or however long the class is. Then cross that "dish" (more like, nasty concoction) off of the menu, as there is plenty more to sample.

Or it's basically "zombie teaching" (i.e. the teacher is a zombie, not necessarily the students, though they too will sooner or later get "bitten" if they stay in such cramped confines too long).

The only time I've ever paid for classes was for a postgrad diploma in Mandarin Chinese. It really helped that there was that qualification of sorts at the end of it, and weekly assessments and a final batch of exams (aural, oral, and written translations), but in retrospect it could've been a lot more thorough and intensive (I stopped going two-thirds of the way through, preferring to study at home instead and just go in for the tests). I think that general language classes (esp. Adult Ed ones) can be quite aimless and a real waste of time (even in a social sense). Oh, and I agree with Sharter that too much of the Direct Method can be more of a hindrance (too much "white noise", what with all the junk filler-patter etc) than a help.

In answer to the poll question then, no, I wouldn't pay for CELTA-like language lessons - I'd invest in some decent teach-yourself style books, and a couple of good dictionaries and grammars, instead. I might at some point consider getting a private tutor for conversing, but by then I'd probably be immersed locally and functioning OK anyway.

I knew something wasn't right with the CELTA method practically from week one. Anyone with half a brain will soon realize that it simply is not possible to read up on quite complex areas as modals, conditionals, perfect tenses, tag questions, articles, etc etc, and do each of them any sort of justice (even break the back of them) in invariably just a single lesson (as in observed teaching practice at least). Or, one might just about be able to impart the outlines of the forms (assuming this is necessary), but getting their functions absolutely clear is a lot lot harder. Unfortunately the so-called "intensive" training that the CELTA affords is often the most time and thought that many teachers will give the language, so off they go once "qualified" to repeat their blurry robolessons for the rest of their (often thankfully short-lived) "careers".

[sharter]

CELTA / CTEFLA don't just show people how to do PPP lessons...at least mine didn't in 1995. The CELTA is designed as a kicking off point for teachers. It's a practical course which gives people an insight into CLT, which is ultimately a method aimed at using language in context to make communication more effective. It's up to teachers themselves where they go with it. Some choose a DELTA, some an MA but some do the reading, attend workshops etc etc. I think most teachers use a very limited range of techniques/methods. We use texts to introduce language and TBL type lessons mostly. PPP is rare because there aren't that many absolute beginners about in the adult world for which the CELTA is designed. Knowing about the silent way, suggestopedia etc is all very interesting but often irrelevant given that the course books usually provide the methodology. Most teachers use course books.
And be wary of judging teachers.....some are just hopeless no matter how many bits of paper they've got.

[spanglish]

I took a Portuguese class and really wished the teacher had some kind of CELTA like knowledge. Here's a few reasons why:

- Drilling consisted of her sitting at the front of the class with the textbook and saying out whole sentences in Portuguese. The class attempted to mimic her; she made no effort to hear anybody individually nor to correct.

- A listening consisted of listening to a song with the words in front of us, no task, nothing. Just listen to the song.

- She had no concept of the idea of controlled practice vs. freer practice.

- Her suggestion for improving our Portuguese - 'You need to be practicing outside of class and reading lots.'

[Sashadroogie]

[fluffyhamster]

Hi Sasha. It was indeed the CTEFLA back then (mid 1990s), but the CELTA is cut from pretty much the same cloth (from what people have said here on Dave's). I mean, it's still not that unusual for trainees to be given observed TP on "select" areas such as those I listed, right? And to be honest, there probably isn't really any other way to get them grammatically wet enough behind the ears in only 4 weeks (barring the trainers actually getting their fingers out a lot more). If only the trainees were told and shown a helluva lot more than simply being left to muddle through. Still, not so very different from a lot of those foreign students who are (often unwittingly) paying just to be strung along and patronized a fair bit, eh! Anyway, these training courses are all supposed to be standardized, so I guess mine was no better or worse than (the) "average".

[Denim-Maniac]

I voted yes. Id love to be taught be someone who was teaching with some kind of recognisable methodology.

I have recently had lessons in Chinese from qualified Chinese teachers who work in a small training school, teaching Chinese to non-Chinese speakers. I paid for a course of lessons, but stopped attending as they were frustrating and useless. They would have been far better with the use of warmers, visuals, structure, control, and any of the communicative tools that may be part of a structured CELTA type course.

This may be unique to China, but teachers of Chinese (in my limited experience) just cant teach, or cant teach in a way that most people find especially effective. The training offered by way of CELTA or similar would/could make a world of difference.

I think this view would be shared by my room mate, who can speak a number of languages but is struggling here with Chinese as he has the same opinion as me. I also had lunch with an Austrian this week who is here learning Chinese. He is also able to speak several languages and finds the methodology here to be baffling.

Id love to have a CELTA trained Chinese teacher who used such methodologies.

[wangdaning]