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Opiate
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 630
Location: Qingdao
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
| Opiate wrote: |
| The two of you are exceptions. I think the both of you know that the majority of people 'teaching' in China can not be teachers in their respective home countries and would not be able to consider 40k USD a huge cut in pay. |
I have to agree with this. How many people with degrees in computer science or engineering have you met teaching here? |
My degree is in CompSci .......but I came here for reasons different from many others and perhaps similar to some. Teaching here with that degree is no different than having a degree in pottery. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, that's quite an insult you've thrown at me.
Yes, I do have a history degree and yes I don't plan on supporting a family or buying a car in China, but beyond that I think you're totally wrong.
I do plan on being a teacher in my home country - I was accepted onto a P.G.C.E. course but decided against it as it wasn't at the right time for me. I also feel a little insulted with being compared to a waitress or taxi driver (not that I'm knocking them) - I didn't spend 4 years of my life in higher education, go into debt and have sleepless nights studying to come half way across the world to be told I'm useless. I spend hours every week planning lessons, creating materials and generally preparing for classes. |
Point being, if you went back home today, without the PGCE, where would your employment prospects lie? Probably more in line with the taxi drivers and waitstaff of the world than with the professors. There simply isn't an economics-based, supply-demand reason that FTs in China should be batting in the big leagues of salary.
The local Chinese professor probably isn't so much "laughing" at the teachers for taking a low salary. He knows that's market value. He's just glad he has the qualifications and connections (or perhaps ability to game the system) to earn more. More than anything, he's probably wondering why you aren't back in your own country getting qualified, making connections and learning how to game the system so you can make top dollar like he does. He's thinking: "All the opportunity that's available in Western countries .. why is this person over here earning 5,000 a month? must be a dimwit ... maybe I can scam him ..."
Last edited by Zero on Thu May 03, 2012 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Or the Chinese professors have better things to think about than how much some foreigner is making, some foreigner who will likely leave at the end of the year and who he really has no need to deal with or think about. |
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creeper1
Joined: 24 Aug 2010
Posts: 481
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Shroob wrote: |
| Zero wrote: |
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Just like in my country, a university teacher does much better than a waitress or a shop assistant or a taxi driver.
Comparing foreign teachers making 5K an hour in a university to a Chinese professor who makes far more than that (ask how he affords the Audi sometime!) and you'll see a true comparison.
We foreigners get ripped off here and they are laughing at us every single day. When we "brag" about making 5K a month, they laugh inside and wonder what kind of family we could ever support on that measly wage. |
FTs mainly have big, fat liberal arts BAs. They are not going to become university professors or any other kind of teacher in their home countries. They aren't going to support families or buy Audis. And in some cases, their employment barriers go beyond having a useless generalist degree. So comparing foreign teachers to Chinese professors is not a fair comparison. In most cases, waitresses, shop assistants and taxi drivers would be the more accurate comparison. I fail to see how FTs are underpaid, generally speaking. |
Wow, that's quite an insult you've thrown at me.
Yes, I do have a history degree and yes I don't plan on supporting a family or buying a car in China, but beyond that I think you're totally wrong.
I do plan on being a teacher in my home country - I was accepted onto a P.G.C.E. course but decided against it as it wasn't at the right time for me. I also feel a little insulted with being compared to a waitress or taxi driver (not that I'm knocking them) - I didn't spend 4 years of my life in higher education, go into debt and have sleepless nights studying to come half way across the world to be told I'm useless. I spend hours every week planning lessons, creating materials and generally preparing for classes. |
A degree in history? Looking to become a teacher in the UK? Well I recognise that PGCE acronym. 
I am sure you know that it isn't going to be easy to become a teacher in the UK. Those two years training are quite a commitment.
Note that most historians at least think of being teachers. Many choose this career. What I'm saying is that supply outsrips demand.
ALso note that the UK is cutting defecits at the moment. So education budgets are getting slashed.
Please take a look at tes.co.uk before making the wrong decision of persuing a dream of teaching in the UK.
Fair play for working hard here in China. I aknowledge your efforts.
But don't think because you done 4 years at uni that you are above a KFC worker. History is basically memorization of facts and learning a flawed narrative.
It is hardly rocket science and has absolutely no application in real life.
Sorry to take you down a rung. |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Comparing foreign teachers making 5K an hour in a university to a Chinese professor who makes far more than that (ask how he affords the Audi sometime!) and you'll see a true comparison.
We foreigners get ripped off here and they are laughing at us every single day. When we "brag" about making 5K a month, they laugh inside and wonder what kind of family we could ever support on that measly wage. |
Also Chinese teachers get paid for the full year, while most universities / colleges pay FT's for 9 or 10 months. |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
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| When we "brag" about making 5K a month |
Anyone walking around mouthing off about their salary deserves resentment no matter what the actual figure is. |
"Brag" to any middle class Chinese person that you're earning 5k a month and watch their face.  |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| He's thinking: "All the opportunity that's available in Western countries .. why is this person over here earning 5,000 a month? must be a dimwit ... maybe I can scam him ..." |
The truth hurts. It takes awhile for one's eyes to open fully in China. I'm still walking around with my eyes closed and bumping into things. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| FTs mainly have big, fat liberal arts BAs. |
I resemble that remark. I have an MA and an MFA.
| Quote: |
They are not going to become university professors or any other kind of teacher in their home countries.
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I've gone from Chinese University to an American College and then back to China. I know others who did not have an opportunity to work an assistantship position in graduate school, so they came to China, worked for 3-4 years, then got positions in decent American universities. Most, however are Ph.Ds. It isn't as uncommon as one might think. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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With advanced degrees, I can see how you'd get work at an American university. I can also see how one with advanced degrees would feel undervalued and underappreciated at a Chinese university. But the position doesn't require advanced degrees, so it's really just a matter of being overqualified. I maintain that Chinese university oral English jobs pay about what they're worth. People aren't laughing at you for taking 5k (or whatever) for THAT JOB. They might, rather, question your general station in life, wondering why you aren't back in the West lapping up all the opportunity that they perceive. The Chinese have little understanding of choosing to earn less in exchange for other benefits such as lower stress etc.
As for your eyes opening: I am approaching middle age, and I feel my eyes opening a little wider each day as to relationships, office politics, human nature and generally how the world works. I sometimes think, "If I'm still learning this much, how much do I still have to learn?" Quite a bit, I suspect. |
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Shroob
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| creeper1 wrote: |
| Shroob wrote: |
| Zero wrote: |
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Just like in my country, a university teacher does much better than a waitress or a shop assistant or a taxi driver.
Comparing foreign teachers making 5K an hour in a university to a Chinese professor who makes far more than that (ask how he affords the Audi sometime!) and you'll see a true comparison.
We foreigners get ripped off here and they are laughing at us every single day. When we "brag" about making 5K a month, they laugh inside and wonder what kind of family we could ever support on that measly wage. |
FTs mainly have big, fat liberal arts BAs. They are not going to become university professors or any other kind of teacher in their home countries. They aren't going to support families or buy Audis. And in some cases, their employment barriers go beyond having a useless generalist degree. So comparing foreign teachers to Chinese professors is not a fair comparison. In most cases, waitresses, shop assistants and taxi drivers would be the more accurate comparison. I fail to see how FTs are underpaid, generally speaking. |
Wow, that's quite an insult you've thrown at me.
Yes, I do have a history degree and yes I don't plan on supporting a family or buying a car in China, but beyond that I think you're totally wrong.
I do plan on being a teacher in my home country - I was accepted onto a P.G.C.E. course but decided against it as it wasn't at the right time for me. I also feel a little insulted with being compared to a waitress or taxi driver (not that I'm knocking them) - I didn't spend 4 years of my life in higher education, go into debt and have sleepless nights studying to come half way across the world to be told I'm useless. I spend hours every week planning lessons, creating materials and generally preparing for classes. |
A degree in history? Looking to become a teacher in the UK? Well I recognise that PGCE acronym.
I am sure you know that it isn't going to be easy to become a teacher in the UK. Those two years training are quite a commitment.
P.G.C.E.'s last one year.
Note that most historians at least think of being teachers. Many choose this career. What I'm saying is that supply outsrips demand.
Supply may outstip demand, but like I said, I was accepted onto the course, I changed my mind after a lot of thinking.
ALso note that the UK is cutting defecits at the moment. So education budgets are getting slashed.
There has to be teachers in the world. Who said I would limit my job location to the UK, plenty of international schools in the world.
Please take a look at tes.co.uk before making the wrong decision of persuing a dream of teaching in the UK.
I've worked in a school for, I know what the working environment is like. I'm aware of the pressure, the commitment and generally being under appreciated.
Fair play for working hard here in China. I aknowledge your efforts.
But don't think because you done 4 years at uni that you are above a KFC worker. History is basically memorization of facts and learning a flawed narrative.
This is where you're wrong, history, at least in the UK is not about rote learning facts, it's about [i]why. With regards to the 'flawed narrative', you may be been watching a few too many conspiracy theory films, if you think the historiography is flawed you're welcome to critique it. [/i]
It is hardly rocket science and has absolutely no application in real life.
History degrees are one of the most in-demand degrees, it may not teach you scientific principles or how to programme a computer, but it does teach a lot of 'soft skills' that employers want.
Sorry to take you down a rung. |
I don't want to start a slanging match, but I want to correct you on a few points. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:37 am Post subject: |
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I personally see nothing wrong with a History degree, but a four year degree does not put you that far from a KFC worker (I only have a four year degree). You may have dedicated the four years, but in the real world it means little. As I said in a previous post, everyone's got one. In the past a degree meant something, that was before pre-university education became about getting people into university. Truly screwed over the younger people who should have went to university.
In the end, we are temporary part time workers. Don't expect to be compared to locals, unless they are also temporary part time workers. Like I said before, this debate makes little sense unless we are granted the right to have a more permanent presence in the departments we work in. I wouldn't hold my breath for that though. That means the government would have to change its rules (maybe when all the people we have taught take power ). |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| therock wrote: |
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Comparing foreign teachers making 5K an hour in a university to a Chinese professor who makes far more than that (ask how he affords the Audi sometime!) and you'll see a true comparison.
We foreigners get ripped off here and they are laughing at us every single day. When we "brag" about making 5K a month, they laugh inside and wonder what kind of family we could ever support on that measly wage. |
Also Chinese teachers get paid for the full year, while most universities / colleges pay FT's for 9 or 10 months. |
?? At my college it is the opposite of this. The Chinese teachers only get paid (from the school) for the time they are working. Also, if they do not teach as many classes, their salary goes down. I get paid for 12 months a year. |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| In the past a degree meant something, that was before pre-university education became about getting people into university. |
I don't know about this, if you look at the unemployment rate for people without university degrees, it is like 4 times higher than it is for people with university degrees. That's in the US, I don't know about other places. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
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| In the past a degree meant something, that was before pre-university education became about getting people into university. |
I don't know about this, if you look at the unemployment rate for people without university degrees, it is like 4 times higher than it is for people with university degrees. That's in the US, I don't know about other places. |
Kind of my point. Graduating from university is the new graduating from high school. If you never get a degree that means you did something wrong. Like not graduating from high school in the past. |
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zootown
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
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| In the past a degree meant something, that was before pre-university education became about getting people into university. |
I don't know about this, if you look at the unemployment rate for people without university degrees, it is like 4 times higher than it is for people with university degrees. That's in the US, I don't know about other places. |
Other way around in Australia.If you have a trade qualification you can pick and choose which job you want most run their own business making more than people with degrees. |
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