Job Discussion Forums

[artemisia]

[fluffyhamster]

I've finally gotten around to taking a look at that pdf. My word, it makes learning nowadays appear to be just so much form-flipping and box-ticking, and e.g. the CEF look almost like a breezy, quickly-assimilable read in comparison. Mind you, I can see how plenty of simple "can-do, will-do" statements might give trainees a "clearer" idea of what kind of dots there are to join. (Actually joining them up into something that coheres well isn't as simple, though! But enough about the pdf ).

[artemisia]

IMO the quality of a course is going to depend to some extent on its delivery, no matter how good its content. In a few posts I�ve recommended from time to time that would-be trainees try and meet and get an impression of who�ll be running their course. It isn�t always possible to do that, just as it isn�t for any course of study enrolled in. Having a uniform programme does at least give some assurance as to what to expect if enrolling from afar. Plenty of people want that, just as plenty want some basic training before they stand in front of a class without any real sense of what they�re supposed to do.

Following the ins and outs of the pdf shouldn�t be too troublesome � and may even be something of a relief - for anyone who�s had the stamina to make it through all the twists, turns and sudden, vertiginous plunges down the rabbit holes of this thread.

[Denim-Maniac]

[Sashadroogie]

Very true. And what makes these negative comments about CELTA more laughable is the totally rubbish approach adopted by most of the anti-Cert teachers I have had the misfortune to work with. "I don't check instructions - that's demeaning to adults!" followed by a chaotic, random activity whereby the teacher merely 'assists' by raising eyebrows and repeating 'dude?', presumably to error-correct in a non-demeaning manner. "Feedback? Why? They've already done the task, jeez!"

[fluffyhamster]

Sure, Artemesia, there are good and not-so-good trainers, just like with teachers. The fact however that they're still just cert trainers rather than say MA or PhD tutors means that they haven't quite yet reached the dizzying heights of the Tim McNamaras or Averil Coxheads that Mmcmorrow mentioned. (Not trying to be too dismissive of the "practical" versus "theoretical" poles, but rather just intimating that the middle ground is the place to "somehow" individually "get to" and "be").

@Sasha: Not all activities and approaches require endless instructions, or explicit feedback. Unless of course we aspire to be the equivalent of those often needless Windows prompts, or the warnings on packets of peanuts notifying the extremely unwary: "Contains peanuts".

[Sashadroogie]

Fluffy, this is true, but is it true all the time, on principle? It would appear that this is what the great unceltaed mistakenly believe. A quick check on the faces of the bewildered learners is enough to confirm that there are plenty of tasks which do require explanation, instruction, error correction, feedback etc. Learners who have never heard of a CELTA will know this. How can so-called teachers not?

[spiral78]

[fluffyhamster]

Sorry, Spiral, I genuinely should've added a 'probably' between the words 'tutors' and 'means'. And I won't quip "How mighty are the fallen" - to each his own, and a job is a job, especially nowadays! I'm not sure (if I were really qualified to, I mean) that I'd want to do such a job for decades though, especially if it were back in boring old Blighty (that is, I was a bit surprised to see the same head trainer at the school I qualified at, when I revisited it well over a decade later after spending most of that time in Asia smuggling books). What about you guys who are mainly trainers, who get most of your crust from hosing down the unwashed, unripe newbies? Is the day to day job enough to make you sometimes consider quitting? (If so, what would you like to do instead? ).

[Sashadroogie]

Fluffy, quite a lot of what happens in any EFL classroom is unnatural. The very idea of having to speak a foreign language is extremely so for many learners. To criticise methodology for being unnatural is really to undermine the whole enterprise - namely to help learners to learn and to achieve the school's 'purported aim'. Methods used on the CELTA course do do this. I haven't heard anything from you that would provide a workable alternative. Not using basic classroom procedures invariably leads to non-lessons, though I'm sure the teacher responsible was convinced that he was behaving in an 'authentic' way.

To take this to its furthest conclusion, how should driving be taught? Naturally, on a city street, with all the associated problems? Or in a school first, with a private track, and instructors who can tell you what to do and correct you when you mess up? As you already know, the latter is the case for nearly every driving school I know of. I'm sure it is unnatural too - but the alternative is clearly ridiculous.

[spiral78]

[HLJHLJ]

[LongShiKong]

[fluffyhamster]

[artemisia]