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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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 Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| While I'm at it, will add some more details. |
I have learned to handle JTE's fragile egos (and that sticky issue of "face" or tatemae) by pointing out errors with a comment like, "Actually, native speakers, even adults, make that error all the time. It really is difficult to master." Half the time, it's even honestly true. I can't tell you how many native speakers I see screw up its vs it's or there, their, they're, or even "i before e except after c except in neighbor and weigh" etc.. This does NOT undercut the JTE's authority, and I have never had a JTE or students react badly to it. It's usually just a "Sou, kana? Eigo wa MUZUIII!" reaction.
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| Last year's JTEs asked me to help check homework, help pass out worksheets and ask the students the day and date during opening aisatsu. This year, two of the new JTEs have explicitly asked me NOT to check the kids' homework, don't let me help pass out worksheets and they ask the day and date. I stand there smiling. |
That's absurd. I had a pile of grading to do every day, and each November we had a BoE wide essay and speech contest and guess who got to read and correct them all? I am shocked at this. Again, maybe these is because I was an (and my coworkers were) AET? Glenski? You have the decade of experience here, care to chime in? Is AET vs ALT that different and maybe this whole view of mine is based on that? It's starting to sound conceivable...
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Either:
1. The JTEs want to do everything and maintain control
2. I have done something for them to not trust me (wracking my brain and can't think of anything) |
*shrugs* Wakaran. I dunno. This seems ridiculous to me.
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| As far using Japanese, I use it a lot at work. Many of the JTEs and all of the other teachers speak with me in Japanese. I don't use it when I am teaching/explaining, but will use Japanese in one-on-one sessions when proofreading. Never had an issue with that. |
I do. It's often necessary. But then, we've established I teach grammar, and you don't, right?
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| Over all, I enjoy the job and the overall lifestyle. These are petty gripes. |
If this was my every day, I'd be ripping my hair out. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| That's absurd. I had a pile of grading to do every day, and each November we had a BoE wide essay and speech contest and guess who got to read and correct them all? |
Last year, one of the JTEs asked me to correct homework. I then took it upon myself to ask him if he needed help (when my schedule was light).
This year, only one of the new JTEs approached me. I am happy to help.
| Kionon wrote: |
| If this was my every day, I'd be ripping my hair out. |
To each their own. I was crazy busy at Nova and it all came to nothing. Busted my butt for years and no one cared. I am happy (overall) to have an easy job with long holidays. I don't leave the office tired every day.
Last edited by steki47 on Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
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| Last month, a JTE shot down my suggestion of a mnemonic device for "a" and "u". The JTE explained to the class that: 1. I was wrong and 2. My idea was "too difficult" for Japanese. |
Don't get me wrong here, but my first thought in replying was, "So?" We weren't there, and you have not given us anything to go on, so it's impossible to judge who is actually in the right or whether anything was truly too difficult.
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| Maybe it wasn't the best idea, but I thought she was rather hostile. |
Strong word, hostile. Again, this is your perception, and we have no description of the event to go on. |
Coming back to this, I'll tell the whole story. We were teaching the irregular past and the JTE was explaining the difference between the pronunciation of the "a" in "sang" versus the "u" in "sung". The JTE spent several minutes explaining the positioning of the tongue and teeth and had me say "ah" and "uh" several times.
The lengthy, astrophysics-level detailed explanations JTEs give are often useful and effective. Here, I saw the kids just staring at us with glazed eyes.
I jumped in and wrote an arc over the "a" and one under the "u". I then explained that we go up to say "sang" (upward arc with index finger) and down when we say "sung" (downward with finger). The kids lit up and said "wakatta".
The JTE got flustered and said to them, "That is difficult for Japanese" and "ALT sensei is wrong". Maybe I was too thin-skinned, but I thought her reaction was a bit over the top. |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
Coming back to this, I'll tell the whole story. We were teaching the irregular past and the JTE was explaining the difference between the pronunciation of the "a" in "sang" versus the "u" in "sung". The JTE spent several minutes explaining the positioning of the tongue and teeth and had me say "ah" and "uh" several times.
The lengthy, astrophysics-level detailed explanations JTEs give are often useful and effective. Here, I saw the kids just staring at us with glazed eyes.
I jumped in and wrote an arc over the "a" and one under the "u". I then explained that we go up to say "sang" (upward arc with index finger) and down when we say "sung" (downward with finger). The kids lit up and said "wakatta".
The JTE got flustered and said to them, "That is difficult for Japanese" and "ALT sensei is wrong". Maybe I was too thin-skinned, but I thought her reaction was a bit over the top. |
Although you meant well, you handled the situation badly. You "jumped in" and undermined her when you should have politely, quietly asked if you could try something. I'm not saying you weren't right, or that her reaction was reasonable (it wasn't), just that I can completely understand why she reacted like that.
| Kionon wrote: |
| Is AET vs ALT that different and maybe this whole view of mine is based on that? It's starting to sound conceivable... |
It's just different terminology for the same role. At my last job, the company referred to us as ALTs. The school called me the AET. I interviewed for a position with a dispatch company in March to be an NT (Native Teachers). Responsibilities were the same. |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: |
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偉そうなぁ！
I get the feeling you haven't been in Japan very long and you don't know Japanese culture and language as well as you think you do. |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| By the way, that's directed at both of you. |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| nightsintodreams wrote: |
| By the way, that's directed at both of you. |
Me? |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, no not you.
In truth I wrote the message after reading Kionon's post about how he was chosen by God to fix the English education system in Japan at the age of 14 (something like that anyway). By the time I'd posted the message, steki47 had already posted another message about how he took over from the JTE mid lesson without asking first. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| nightsintodreams wrote: |
Sorry, no not you.
In truth I wrote the message after reading Kionon's post about how he was chosen by God to fix the English education system in Japan at the age of 14 (something like that anyway). By the time I'd posted the message, steki47 had already posted another message about how he took over from the JTE mid lesson without asking first. |
You're being absurd. At 14 I wanted to be an English teacher and I wanted to teach in Japan. Nothing religious about it, and I didn't have a clue about what ALTs "really do." My French teachers were a mix of French-Americans and Americans who earned a degree at a French institution. I thought JETs were similar. Obviously I was not right at 14, but who is at that age?
I think you mistake a difference in attitude for a lack of knowledge. I am not Japanese. I will never be Japanese. I was hired because I am not Japanese. Therefore I will not be Japanese.
I've decided to pursue a Japanese teaching license, that may necessitate a change in attitude. I intend to pursue permanent residency, that may necessitate a change in attitude... but not today, and not because you say so.
Last edited by Kionon on Wed May 23, 2012 7:35 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| It's just different terminology for the same role. At my last job, the company referred to us as ALTs. The school called me the AET. I interviewed for a position with a dispatch company in March to be an NT (Native Teachers). Responsibilities were the same. |
This is exactly what I thought I already knew, but given everyone else's experiences, I was seriously starting to wonder. |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Go for it. I think in the previous topic you mentioned you were no higher than jlpt level 3 ability. To me that Sounds like you're somewhere between n4 and n3. Firstly, Anyone who thinks n3 ability is high enough to explain grammar concepts effectively must be deluded. Secondly if it took you over ten years to get to lvl3 then your learning methods can't be as great as you seem to believe. I know people who have come to Japan and gone from 0 to n3 in 2 years. Hell I know Japanese people who have done better than that in a system you've done nothing but criticize.
Using my iPhone, no snarky comments about grammar or spelling please |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm not going to play this game.
Choose to believe or disbelieve whatever you wish, but be civil while you do so.
All I will say is that I spent considerable time learning specifically how to take grammar teaching methodologies I learned in undergraduate and put them into Japanese. It didn't exactly come from a copy of Genki...
I've never tested, so JLPT3 was a modest approximation. Nothing below 2 is really relevant to my job or education prospects. If I had to guess, I would say I could be prepared for the December 2 test and eek out a pass.
Furthermore, done nothing but criticise? In the last two days, maybe! I've been on these forums for over four years. C'mon. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Last year's JTEs asked me to help check homework, help pass out worksheets and ask the students the day and date during opening aisatsu. This year, two of the new JTEs have explicitly asked me NOT to check the kids' homework, don't let me help pass out worksheets and they ask the day and date. I stand there smiling. |
That's absurd. I had a pile of grading to do every day, and each November we had a BoE wide essay and speech contest and guess who got to read and correct them all? I am shocked at this. Again, maybe these is because I was an (and my coworkers were) AET? Glenski? You have the decade of experience here, care to chime in? Is AET vs ALT that different and maybe this whole view of mine is based on that? It's starting to sound conceivable... |
Almost 15 years, actually. About all I can say is, Japan is the land of case by case, and unless one has been in contact with a lot of other people in similar positions (uni prof, AET, eikaiwa instructor, astronautical engineer, etc.), get used to the case by case scenario.
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Either:
1. The JTEs want to do everything and maintain control
2. I have done something for them to not trust me (wracking my brain and can't think of anything) |
*shrugs* Wakaran. I dunno. This seems ridiculous to me. |
Why? You've been here long enough to know that some JTEs have these prehistoric attitudes.
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| Over all, I enjoy the job and the overall lifestyle. These are petty gripes. |
If this was my every day, I'd be ripping my hair out. |
Kionon, I think you really need to realize that Japan is going to make you go bald if you let such realities get to you. Life is not perfect, and as much as you have admirable goals and the enthusiasm to pursue them, you are going to run into situations like steki's, and unless you are prepared to let some water roll off your back, you will indeed go crazy. It's part of adapting to a different culture. I know Japan is where you want to be, so take this advice in the spirit it's given -- constructive criticism.
steki,
Your explanation of what happened with sang vs. sung pronunciation just shows that you embarrassed a sempai in front of students. A real no-no. We don't even have to go into which of you did the explanation "properly". You corrected someone without being asked. I agree with OneJoelFifty in that I understand the reaction from the JTE.
Pronunciation is a real bugger to teach. Japanese language doesn't have all the physical sounds (phonemes?) that English does, and to try explaining positioning of tongue, lips, teeth, etc. is hard, even in L1.
Last edited by Glenski on Wed May 23, 2012 8:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| Although you meant well, you handled the situation badly. You "jumped in" and undermined her when you should have politely, quietly asked if you could try something. I'm not saying you weren't right, or that her reaction was reasonable (it wasn't), just that I can completely understand why she reacted like that. |
You are probably right. I may have acted rashly in that situation. Actually, rare for me as I usually only speak when asked by the JTE.
I have been in Japan for eight years, BTW. Which doesn't really mean much, as I made lots of professional mistakes in my own country and culture. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Why? You've been here long enough to know that some JTEs have these prehistoric attitudes. |
Just because I know (and have experienced) this ridiculous behavior doesn't mean it stops being ridiculous. I can see it year after year and still think it silly.
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| Kionon, I think you really need to realize that Japan is going to make you go bald if you let such realities get to you. Life is not perfect, and as much as you have admirable goals and the enthusiasm to pursue them, you are going to run into situations like steki's, and unless you are prepared to let some water roll off your back, you will indeed go crazy. It's part of adapting to a different culture. I know Japan is where you want to be, so take this advice in the spirit it's given -- constructive criticism. |
I am prepared to allow some practical compromise. I could not do it with every JTE, at every school. That would be my breaking point. In which case I would seriously reevaluate my goals. I think it is important we recognise where our limits are. This is mine. |
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