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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
I strongly disagree. It's not wrong at all in any way. It's a different Standard English.
I am a Standard American English speaker who has worked with mostly British colleagues for years. I am not 'wrong' when I use British phraseology or terminology. I am simply using the prevalent lingo for the situation. |
Absolutely. This is not disagreement, this is agreement. Absolutely nothing wrong with what you've done here, but you are outside the "normal" SAE context. You wouldn't go to say, Lima, Ohio, and use "at the weekend" because most Lima residents would not understand you. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I might well use it (though I've no intention of visiting Lima, Ohio) and they would understand. It might sound a bit odd to them, but indeed they would understand.
C'mon: CNN watchers understand Piers Morgan readily. As they do others.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=96460
We've got quite a few European students who do a study abroad year in the States or in Canada. Most of them have studied English using British materials, and they tend to use it in North America. People may correct them on occasion, but it's perfectly understandable in almost every case.
I think people teaching in locations where the majority of the native speaker teachers tend to be North American can get a bit out of touch with how international English accepts a pretty wide range of 'standards.' |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Oh, I might well use it (though I've no intention of visiting Lima, Ohio) and they would understand. It might sound a bit odd to them, but indeed they would understand. |
You knew what I meant.
Yes, they would probably gather your meaning after doing a double-take, but be prepared to hear whispers, "at the weekend? Who says that?" etc. They would think you were wrong. Someone who was particularly uncouth may even tell you so. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Someone who was particularly uncouth may even tell you so |
My parents live in the Deep South, where dialects are strong and international knowledge is weak. I didn't grow up there, and I've lived abroad for nearly 15 years now, and am married to a non-native English speaker. I speak as I speak, and the Georgians can say whatever they want about my 'trousers' instead of 'pants.' So what? I don't live - nor do my students - in an Americentric world.
We don't - none of us in whatever foreign country - teach students in order for them to communicate with people from Lima, Ohio or Podunk, Georgia. We teach them so that they can communicate in international contexts. That's why the 'American vs. British' conversation is utterly moot.
Even students who go to study in some specific Anglophone location don't need prior training in the dialect of that locale. Their new friends will be all too eager and happy to teach them whatever specifics are appropriate there. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| We don't - none of us in whatever foreign country - teach students in order for them to communicate with people from Lima, Ohio or Podunk, Georgia. We teach them so that they can communicate in international contexts. That's why the 'American vs. British' conversation is utterly moot. |
Agreed, but was anyone actually taking this conversation seriously?
I found it fun and interesting. |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| So we're agreed then. English from England is the best. |
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ZennoSaji
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Posts: 87
Location: Mito, Ibaraki
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| So we're agreed then. English from England is the best. |
You're fired. |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Which is the better version of Japanese? The version spoken in Brazil, America, Okinawa, Peru or Japan?
Which is "proper" Japanese?
Come to think of it, isn't it strange someone has given the name "British English" to our language. Surely it should be called just "English". Just as Japanese is not called "Japanese Japanese" and French is not called "French French". |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| nightsintodreams wrote: |
| Come to think of it, isn't it strange someone has given the name "British English" to our language. Surely it should be called just "English". Just as Japanese is not called "Japanese Japanese" and French is not called "French French". |
What would you call each dialect, then? Our Englishes are mutually intelligible, but they clearly have differences. Do we have English, American, Australian, Canadian, etc?
If not for mass media, that would probably be true. But we have mass media, so calling English as spoken in England (I presume there are local variances as well, and certainly variances across Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland) simply "English" would discount the other mutually intelligible forms of a common language family.
It'd also be a hassle to change all the educational materials that already have "English" written on them. Can you imagine the cost of changing everything to say "American class?" |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Every dumb point gets an even dumber response. I vote we stop this thread now, before it turns ludicrous. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Aw, why stop now? Unless 'before' has some sort of local conceptualisation at odds with the rest of the world... |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| spiral78 wrote: |
| Oh, I might well use it (though I've no intention of visiting Lima, Ohio) and they would understand. It might sound a bit odd to them, but indeed they would understand. |
You knew what I meant.
Yes, they would probably gather your meaning after doing a double-take, but be prepared to hear whispers, "at the weekend? Who says that?" etc. They would think you were wrong. Someone who was particularly uncouth may even tell you so. |
As I have been wont to say many a time and oft, it is usually North American speakers of English who engage in double-take incomprehension. I put it down to misunderstandings stemming from childhood school experiences, particularly at recess : ) |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
I think people teaching in locations where the majority of the native speaker teachers tend to be North American can get a bit out of touch with how international English accepts a pretty wide range of 'standards.' |
Oh yeah, I've worked with 'native English speakers' whom I can barely understand. And like many here, I can understand some pretty poor English. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| As I have been wont to say many a time and oft, it is usually North American speakers of English who engage in double-take incomprehension. I put it down to misunderstandings stemming from childhood school experiences, particularly at recess : ) |
OOOOOH BAAAARN. I wish I was able to embed memes into posts, because "I see what you did thar."
I'm with Pitarou. This debate is silly, and I am being just as silly as anyone else in the thread. I fully admit that.
I have trouble understanding Kenyans, and while we're on the subject of not understanding people, I don't even try to decipher the Cornish. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| No, Kionon, I don't think you are being silly at all. (That's my forte.) Your arguments are quite reasoned, and well put. Give some good food for thought. |
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