Job Discussion Forums

Aramas · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 2:58 pm Post subject:

Fair enough Smile

I have never owned a tweed jacket with leather elbows. The only 'teaching' I've done is one-on-one tutoring in uni maths, physics and CAD - oh, and a few IT classes. I'll be doing a CELTA in november and dabbling unprofessionally in TEFL shortly thereafter - along with continuing my degree externally, writing and designing. I'd like to be able to say that my primary reason for teaching is so that I can poke my students, but unfortunately it wouldn't be true. I didn't even poke my classmates at uni - too close to home for my tastes. Actually my main reason is the same as that given by every nurse I've ever asked - it goes well with travel.

zaneth · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:07 pm Post subject:

Me too, before I went abroad all my experience was tutoring classmates in math/science stuff. Teaching language is quite a different situation.

My mother did her masters in teaching, so I'm familiar with the subject matter/teaching skill debate.

But here we can basically assume full knowledge of the subject matter. Teaching skill is what you need.

Another difference I noticed. Science is very concept based. There's a lot of stuff where if you can get the concept across, then you're done. I know there's other things but this is a big part of it. With language someone can understand the concept of something but they have to practice it. It has to get into their head. And this process for them will be so different from what the process of learning science was for you.

I find the differences between science tutoring and language teaching rather discouraging at times.

Aramas · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:24 pm Post subject:

My mother did her PhD in Australian Women's Literature - lol (well, almost - she died 3 months off completing it). Hence my familiarity with feminism. The Balmain feminist literati make interesting dinner companions. She was also a managing editor at a Sydney publisher (HBJ), so I'm accustomed to a critical approach to language, albeit in written form.

I'm not expecting teaching English to be easy. I'll give it my best shot and see how I go. That's what I've done with everything else I've ever tried and it's worked for me so far. If I suck horribly at it then I might try my hand at puppy wrangling in China Smile

Deborann · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:06 pm Post subject:

Excuse me!

Aramas · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject:

F*** off deb. Bad day in the menagerie? Don't tell me what I'm saying. That's what you're saying, not me. What a thoroughly unpleasant example of the species you seem to be. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Deborann · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject:

Got caught out by your own words Aramas??

Why do you attack me when I follow through with the logical conclusions of what you have written? I used the 'clarification process' - you know, one of those inane recursive pedagogical techniques to make certain that I had fully understood what you had written. I even quoted your own words. Just the most basic of reframes to test my hypothesis - almost a straight repeat of words.

I then used a 'parallelist" or "analagous" approach to demonstrate the basic flaws in the general tenor of your postings. Based on these I made a conclusion and a recommendation for future action. All quite scientific actually - even if pedagogically based.

Your response was disproportionate. What could that be indicative of?

Burl Ives · Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 226 Location: Burled, PRC

Others said a lot of things I didn't read.

Here I sit, eating predried, later-boiled rice, and grey chicken, and you ask me if I'll profess to what I do? EFL is not a profession. Beyond the tendency of EFL teachers to profess, it is not a profession.

This is certainly different from asking if those teachers are capable.

zorro · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 6:04 pm Post subject:

deborann, whats wrong with observing and commenting on other peoples observations of ESL/EFL? if we didn't have any ideas about something that we have never done then we would never do it.

Deborann · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 10:56 pm Post subject:

Nothing wrong with that at all zorro - as long as you make it clear you are speaking from only the point of view of an inquiring observer, and not with the voice of experience.

Telling the surgeon what you think he should do, what additional training he may need and what training he should have had from an experienced surgeons perspective is very different from doing it as a avid observer of medical dramas and having had a broken arm once.

stillnosheep · Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 2068 Location: eslcafe

Next!

Aramas · Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 1:46 am Post subject:

I have no philosophical problem with feeding monkeys, and I'm sure Deb's simeon dancing skills are far more impressive than my own. Ignoring the embarrassingly enthusiastic slobber (which admittedly doesn't leave much), I take it that Deb's position is that only experienced teachers with an education degree are qualified to discuss the public perception of the status of schoolteachers?

If two people are monkey-dancing and one has a BA (a common scenario, I'm sure), does that make the undegreed monkey-dancer unqualified? Would an observer with neither a BA nor monkey-dancing experience be unqualified to comment on the social status of monkey-dancers? Since teaching ESL doesn't require any qualifications at all in many countries then how can anyone possibly be unqualified for the job? Am I to assume that you, Deb, have never offered an opinion regarding a subject that you're neither qualified for, nor experienced at?

You seem to be an unhappy person, Deb. I recently read back through a lot of old posts, and in them you distinguished yourself above all others in unreasoning oral-frothiness. In fact, when I used the word 'feminazi' in a recent post it was you I was referring to. God help your students, since I have serious reservations regarding your current ability to do so. I hope that you find some happiness in your life. It can make the world look quite different. Perhaps a career change might be worth a try?

On the upside, at least I'm getting some puppy wrangling experience Smile

anthyp · Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 1320 Location: Chicago, IL USA

Ahem, a little civility, please. I was thinking about something else last night before falling asleep ... perhaps the most difficult problem I have with accepting what we do as a profession is the ease into which anyone may enter in it. I mean, you have to be qualified to be a doctor, or a lawyer, or even a teacher back home, right? But anybody can get into TEFL; in China you don't even need the certificate (and they're still hiring high schoolers, apparently). I don't know if anybody mentioned this before but I think it's a big stumbling block in the March to Professionalism.

Burl Ives · Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 226 Location: Burled, PRC

Deborann · Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 7:49 am Post subject:

Aramas, you are descending yet again to vitriol and name-calling - a rather petty form of harassment indicating an inability to conduct a reasoned argument. I also challenge you to quote me - in context! - where I have demonstrated my 'feminazi' persona. Or perhaps is it that any women who are applying reasoning to your postings are so labelled?

I have never seen the work I do here in China as monkey dancing - I respect my students, their abilities and their desire to learn. My SIMIAN dancing abilities are as yet undiscovered, and I offer no comment on them. (Perhaps you meant Simeon, the son of Jacob and Leah, or was it Simeon Stylites - a Syrian monk and stylite? Either way, I don't qualify.)

The OP posed the following: