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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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 Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
Interesting. These anecdotes contradict each other.
Nightsintodreams says this isn't common, OneJoelFifty says it is.
I really don't much care which it is, as long as people stop treating my annoyance as something they can ignore or make light off. |
You seem really inflexible for someone who lives in a foreign country. Makes me wonder why you chose to live there. When something bothers you so much about the culture of a particular place it's not their job to accommodate you. It's your responsibility to adapt or break.
It's like if I went to Texas and started talking about how rude it is that everyone says "thank you" so much. (it is actually rude to say thank you for little things in some cultures) If I explained to every person I met that it's actually rude in my culture for them to thank me, the Texans would think I was nuts. Which is basically what the Japanese think about you. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| You seem really inflexible for someone who lives in a foreign country. Makes me wonder why you chose to live there. When something bothers you so much about the culture of a particular place it's not their job to accommodate you. It's your responsibility to adapt or break. |
You're basing my entire personality on a series of posts on an internet forum? I am inflexible on certain things. I would say I am far more flexible in general than I am inflexible in specific. I will compromise and adapt on a great many things, but on precious few I will not.
You think it is just Japan? You think it is just "foreign" countries? You should see how I butt heads on certain issues in Texas, or in Washington DC, or in Chicago. Where I am is really immaterial. I find I am much more comfortable in Japan than in Texas, as proud as I am of certain aspects of Texas. However this is the Japan forum, not the Texas forum. I have other forums for venting about my issues with Texas culture, a culture I grew up in.
It is everyone's responsibility not to intentionally cause pain or discomfort to someone unless there is very good reason to do so. And I don't think there is good reason to do so in regards to much of what we have discussed so far. That's above cultural relativism. Period.
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| It's like if I went to Texas and started talking about how rude it is that everyone says "thank you" so much. (it is actually rude to say thank you for little things in some cultures) If I explained to every person I met that it's actually rude in my culture for them to thank me, the Texans would think I was nuts. |
Where did you go? You can hardly get a thank you for anything in Dallas or Houston! I think your analogy is better suited to Japan than Texas. Even rural Texas, where you're as likely to be ignored or shot as to be thanked for anything! |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
I think you understand it exactly. Looking so different, we are often the immediate topic of conversation whenever we walk by. It's not really rude or prejudiced, but when people see you they will start to talk about you. Usually it's really obvious they're talking about you too, even if you dont speak the the language. Often times the talking will involve laughing, so it's really easy to assume you're being mocked or laughed at, but it's not often the case.
It's hard to get used to, but eventually it stops bothering you. You're always going to be viewed as different so just get used to it and embrace it. Being viewed as a foreigner actually has some benefits. You can get away with a lot more. |
Exactly. It's usually nothing to be bothered about at all. It can be tiny things, too. Often a group of school kids will see me on the train and then suddenly they'll be talking about whether they have an English class that day. And like you said, take the rough with the smooth. I'm happy to be excused certain social faux pas that I'm sure I make all the time, so I don't care if people want to comment on how tall I am or how big my feet are now and again. |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:38 am Post subject: |
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I haven't read the entire thread, but just wanted to put in my two cents. IMO, I don't feel that a lot of them are racist (of course you will have some actual racists), but more so those ignorant of cultures outside of Japanese culture or Japanese people. I mentioned before that my old Japanese teacher asked me about what my family's Easter meal consisted of. She asked if my family had a fried chicken meal. I wasn't offended or anything, but she didn't say it with malice or hate, she genuinely thought that's what my family would've had, which is why she asked. Do I feel this was racist? No, just ignorance on her part. Just because I'm black, doesn't mean I eat fried chicken, despite what the media likes to say.
Anywho, yeah, this is how I feel on the subject as far as Japan goes. I guess it's due to the fact that I haven't really encountered any knowingly. I know when I used to ride the trains, I always listened to music, so I didn't hear much of what was said around me, but when I have, I never noticed anything negative.
As for compliments, I always get told that my skin is beautiful and that my hair is beautiful. Is it normal? Who knows, but it's positive, so I'm taking it. lol |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:24 am Post subject: |
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I think I need to post in the "Good things about Japan" thread again. Like most people, I tend to be far more vocal about what upsets me.
I also find it hilarious that my friends in Texas always complain I make Japan sound like paradise, especially when I complain about how crappy healthcare is in the United States, or how everyone litters, or how going into South Dallas or Houston's Fifth Ward is life threatening and I rarely have to worry about crime at all in Japan. "Well, why don't you just stay in Japan if it's so perfect..." Of course, they don't understand when I try to tell them about all of things in Japan which upset me, because they don't have any frame of reference. Venting cuts both ways.
*shrug* |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| timothypfox wrote: |
| Steki47, most housewives handle the money in Japan including restaurant bills. So, that is something that could have happened (and does) with Japanese-Japanese couples. |
Good point. This may be oversensitivity on my part. Of course, this has also happened to me when I am out drinking with a male J-friend. |
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gytfunke
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Well, thank you all for the intelligent discussion and feedback. It doesn't sound so bad over there. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| It's not that I'm insulted, or I don't like my face, it's just something I don't feel should be talked about. The mere act of talking about the size of my face bothers me. It's inappropriate to me. And as said, it isn't that I get upset the first time someone says it, I get upset with they either continue saying it or blow off my feelings on the matter. |
Yeah, I know! Amazing that so many people fon't believe theire own beauty!  Do you think it is more common in Japan or where you are from? |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
Kionon I think you're being a bit precious about the small face comments. In my experience Japanese people say that kind of thing to each other all the time, it's not necessarily to do with you being foreign. I get told "you have a tall nose" from time to time, which I don't especially like...but then the kids at school often refer to the darker colour of their friend's skin, someone being fat, or tall, or whatever. My friend worked at a school where the teachers regularly laughed about the fat girl, and told her she ought to do more exercise and stuff like that. Not nice, but a not niceness for everyone.
I find most of the attention I get is positive, and when I was in Mito I quite enjoyed being one of a small group of foreigners. One thing that has started to grate though is Japanese guys using me to try and impress their friends or meet girls. Beware the guy that wants to come buy you a drink. He might just be happy to meet some foreign people, and I have made some friends in situations like that; he might be looking for an opportunity to practice his English; or he might be showing off with you as his prop. Once in Osaka a couple of guys came to drink with us. They then invited over a couple of girls. Things got less fun when the girls weren't that interested in them, and their friendliness turned into them telling the girls "Don't go with those guys, come with us!" when we left to go elsewhere.
The other day on the train back to Tokyo I was already in a slightly bad mood for some reason. The carriage was almost empty, save for a group of high school girls in the set of seats across from me, and a group of boys further down. I had the window seat and there was no one else in my bay, and one of the boys came and sat down across from me. They'd already been loud and climbing over the seats and being a pain, so I took off my sunglasses and looked him in the eye. He stared straight ahead looking scared and then took out his phone and fiddled with it a while, before going back to his friends. It annoyed me quite a lot that day. |
I have been told many times about my small face and high nose!  I hope that is a goo thing and always thoutgt it was but sometimes people say I look like Bruce Willis!  I don't look like him at all but I think they mean becauwse I am going bald! I want them to say I look like jonny Depp but nobaody does!!  |
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weigookin74
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 265
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| This is all so surprising. Japan has been opened to the world for a long time. (Since, at least, 1850's.) They were occupied by America for a time after the war. Then they became an economic power and had to deal with western countries that they exported to. It's so strange to read these comments. Korea has some similar problems in some areas. But, there is less discrimination in some areas if you can either speak the language or have someone go with you. Many places will rent, some banks will give credit cards, some won't, etc. But, Korea has only had foriegners come into the country in larger country during the last 10 to 20 years. Japan has been dealing with the world for decades. What excuse do they give? Many things, comments can seem similar in Korea, but some things seem more progressive too. Seems so surprising to me. I was there as a tourist a couple of years ago. A few were happy to see me as a foriegn tourist, though most seemed indifferent. I couldn't speak Japanese so I had no way of knowing who said what if anything. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| weigookin74 wrote: |
| Japan has been dealing with the world for decades. What excuse do they give? |
Japan has been open to trade for over 150 years, but that doesn't equate to a global perspective at the personal level. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| Kionon wrote: |
It has happened here, but I am on my way to work, so I don't have the time to google-fu and pull it up. It is really rare, like crime in general... |
No, you're right. 2-3 months a go, a Nepalese man was beaten to death by 4-5 "yanki"-types.
Back in 2005 or so, there was a news article about an English teacher who was beaten to death by "yakuza". (I really, really think there was more to that story. Very, very suspicious.) |
The Yanki kids seem to attack people randomly. I know the biker gangs don't like gaijin all that much, but they usually don't assault them though. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| Sad thing, if I get angry or even calmly try to explain, I am not sure that person would understand why I thought it was rude. |
Not explaining simply validates the behavior, so I always try to explain.
I have a friend who has visited me. He's Asian-American, and we would go out to eat, and he would get all the Japanese, even though he understands none of it. He's just a tourist from time to time. Finally, I launched into this lecture in Japanese, polite but firm, that I was the one who had lived in Japan for years, I am the one who speaks Japanese, that despite the fact that my friend is Asian and I am Caucasian, there is no reason to assume he speaks Japanese and I do not.
The look on the waitress's face almost made me regret it...almost. More NJs need to do this, especially in areas where NJs are not as prevalent. It's the only way we're going to make it clear that this type of behavior is not covered under cultural relativism, but is inappropriate above and beyond differences allowed for cultural variance.
The best analogy I can think of is that I don't lift my shoes in front of my Arabian friends in the US. In general, US majority culture doesn't think anything of crossing your legs and putting your shoes up, but knowing that such a gesture is offensive to many individuals from an Arab background, why would I keep doing it after being told just once that it is offensive. Once is all it takes. No country gets a pass on this on the basis of cultural uniqueness.
Insert disclaimer here about these being my personal opinions, mileage may vary, not everyone agrees with me, etc, etc. |
Haha, 2 Ozzie friends(one white, one Chinese) and I went to Tokyo from Kansai. We got on the wrong train, and the conductor yelled at HER, and only her. Was really funny in retrospect. |
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natsume
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 409
Location: Chongqing, China
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
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One thing that hasn't been pointed out here, although most of what might offend us can be attributed to innocent ignorance, a##holes are everywhere. I have always found it a good rule of thumb to ignore them. Life is too short, and Japan, in general, has treated me exceedingly well. Granted, I am a white male, average height/body type, with black hair, so I may not stick out quite as much as some.
(If it can be done in a calm and rational manner, I do explain why certian things may be offensive when appropriate.) |
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teacheratlarge
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 192
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Heh, heh, one of those hot topics for some people living abroad in Japan (and for some, easily ignored, especially by the zainichi). |
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