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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Not racism, but along the lines of "Japanese essentialism often means obliviousness vs. malice," I just had this conversation about dispatch ALT work with my JTE:
JTE: The dispatch system is really bad. I don't like dealing with different companies.
Me: I agree and suggest that the BoEs should direct hire.
JTE: But what about the high amount of money asked for by direct hire ALTs who will only leave after a few years? Sometimes they make more than us licensed teachers and they are badly trained.
Me: I suggest this is because Japan makes it very hard to immigrate and build a life in Japan, and that there is a serious lack of upwards mobility for most ALTs. Of course you will have people who, after years of failing to build a life here as an equal, will take the money and run.
JTE: *blank stare as if the idea of NJs making a life in Japan is pure nonsense*
And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up pretty much the entire thread. The amount of cognitive dissonance involved in demanding highly trained ALTs/NTEs while at the same time totally failing to recognise to have that you would really need the fundamentally shift the focus from temporary guest workers to long term residents is amazing, yet there it is. |
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jmatt
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:55 am Post subject: |
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I think the key is realizing/accepting that no matter how long you live in the country or learn to fluently speak the language, you'll never be accepted as "Japanese." And that's not a bad thing, as you'll never have to, or be expected to, understand or take part in the myriad complexities that govern social life in Japan.
Sure, you'll never, ever, be accepted as "one of us," but it's the same in virtually any Asian country---hell, the vast majority of countries around the world---Japan's no different. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| jmatt wrote: |
| I think the key is realizing/accepting that no matter how long you live in the country or learn to fluently speak the language, you'll never be accepted as "Japanese." And that's not a bad thing, as you'll never have to, or be expected to, understand or take part in the myriad complexities that govern social life in Japan. |
Unless that's what you want, then it is very much a "bad thing." Or at least a very, very annoying thing. You being proverbial here. It probably isn't what I want, even if I want to live here the rest of my life. However, I've certainly met J-citizens who are not Japanese by blood.
| Quote: |
| Sure, you'll never, ever, be accepted as "one of us," but it's the same in virtually any Asian country---hell, the vast majority of countries around the world---Japan's no different. |
Citation needed. Or at the very least, find me a high number of countries where this is the case and where there is not some terrible civil rights/human rights abuses. Plenty of places I can think of where you'll never be accepted as "one of us" and most of the places are places where I would be frightened for my life. I'll buy East Asian countries. I'll even buy this country or that country across the globe. I don't buy "vast majority of countries around the world" unless most of the "vast majority" are places where foreigners are likely to be killed in a civil war...
Of course, I am not a cultural relativist on the issue of immigration. I don't believe in nationality by inherency. My US citizenship is valuable to me not because I was born in the US, which I was, but because when I joined the Navy, I stood up and in perpetuity swore my allegiance to the Constitution of the United States (which is why J-citizenship is out of the question). That was when I truly became an American. If I hadn't done that, I'd probably have had no qualms about becoming Japanese... *shrug*
Oh, and the idea one cannot be Japanese unless by blood? That wasn't finalised until the early Showa Era. I can provide citations, if necessary. |
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jmatt
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| jmatt wrote: |
| I think the key is realizing/accepting that no matter how long you live in the country or learn to fluently speak the language, you'll never be accepted as "Japanese." And that's not a bad thing, as you'll never have to, or be expected to, understand or take part in the myriad complexities that govern social life in Japan. |
Unless that's what you want, then it is very much a "bad thing." Or at least a very, very annoying thing. You being proverbial here. It probably isn't what I want, even if I want to live here the rest of my life. However, I've certainly met J-citizens who are not Japanese by blood.
| Quote: |
| Sure, you'll never, ever, be accepted as "one of us," but it's the same in virtually any Asian country---hell, the vast majority of countries around the world---Japan's no different. |
Citation needed. Or at the very least, find me a high number of countries where this is the case and where there is not some terrible civil rights/human rights abuses. Plenty of places I can think of where you'll never be accepted as "one of us" and most of the places are places where I would be frightened for my life. I'll buy East Asian countries. I'll even buy this country or that country across the globe. I don't buy "vast majority of countries around the world" unless most of the "vast majority" are places where foreigners are likely to be killed in a civil war...
Of course, I am not a cultural relativist on the issue of immigration. I don't believe in nationality by inherency. My US citizenship is valuable to me not because I was born in the US, which I was, but because when I joined the Navy, I stood up and in perpetuity swore my allegiance to the Constitution of the United States (which is why J-citizenship is out of the question). That was when I truly became an American. If I hadn't done that, I'd probably have had no qualms about becoming Japanese... *shrug*
Oh, and the idea one cannot be Japanese unless by blood? That wasn't finalised until the early Showa Era. I can provide citations, if necessary. |
As far as the people who have been living in Japan for years and years and continued to be discriminated against, especially those of Korean descent, you're right. Or the many non-white foreigners who live in the country for that matter. But, those people sure aren't reading this forum---and my comments were more directed at the ESL crowd who live in Japan by choice---but I see your point.
The point I was trying to make is that it's folly for any non-Japanese (again, directed at the people likely reading this, FWIW) to ever expect to be accepted on equal footing and there are positive aspects to that, and that fact is not unique to Japan. Ever spent much time in Thailand or Indonesia? No different there, and if anything, it's worse. No citations to that, just personal experience---and it's not to denigrate those countries, just to point out that Japan's not unique in this regard. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| jmatt wrote: |
| As far as the people who have been living in Japan for years and years and continued to be discriminated against, especially those of Korean descent, you're right. Or the many non-white foreigners who live in the country for that matter. But, those people sure aren't reading this forum---and my comments were more directed at the ESL crowd who live in Japan by choice---but I see your point. |
Uhm. No, see, I was talking about everyone. White, non-white, ESL, non-ESL who makes a decision to live in Japan permanently. How about the Finnish-Japanese who has a seat in the Diet? Is he not Japanese because he's white? Surely his constituents think he's Japanese enough to represent them in the nation's highest legislature.
I probably won't pursue citizenship for the reasons I already expressed (although if Japan ever allowed dual citizenship, I would apply immediately), but I have decided to stay. Forever.
| Quote: |
| The point I was trying to make is that it's folly for any non-Japanese (again, directed at the people likely reading this, FWIW) to ever expect to be accepted on equal footing and there are positive aspects to that, and that fact is not unique to Japan. Ever spent much time in Thailand or Indonesia? No different there, and if anything, it's worse. No citations to that, just personal experience---and it's not to denigrate those countries, just to point out that Japan's not unique in this regard. |
Then consider me in folly, because I do expect it, and I believe one day it will happen. I even believe it will happen in my lifetime, although not for a few decades. It will certainly occur in the next hundred years, since the original idea itself is not even a hundred years old as it is. It's not inherent to the Japanese psyche that those who are ethnically different must never been treated as equal citizens. Meiji himself gave citizenship to a number of Westerners who helped modernise Japan.
Instead, this idea is a product of the extreme ultranationalistic section of the military which took control of the government in late Taisho and early Showa, and indeed, was egged on by the United States' repudiation of the "Gentleman's Agreement" with the passage of the Immigration Act of 1924 which ended Japanese immigration the United States (Japanese-Americans were considered "unassimilable," gee, doesn't that sound familiar?) and caused riots in Tokyo...
I don't know anything about Indonesia or Thailand except that I've been told that it isn't what I consider safe. This is why I won't visit. |
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gittelbug
Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: |
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I've been in Japan only about 2 years now. I've experienced some of the basic things such as "Oh your Japanese is so good!" when asking for the 6th floor or saying I didn't need a bag at the conbini. Or people not sitting in the seat next to me on a totally packed train (hey more room for me!). When visiting my Japanese friend's house her family took me out for udon and her mother kept going "上手" while I ate. I wasn't really offended by it (really it was kinda cute) but I did explain that sushi is quite popular in the US now and so most people use chopsticks or learn.
I've had people stop at stare at me (even in tokyo) like I was some sort of sideshow act or perhaps a member of arashi  Normally a friendly "konnichiwa" shakes them up enough to realize they're being rude. Children tend to stare and/or get scared but as I generally like kids (Japanese kids are too cute) I make silly faces at them.
But I've had experiences similar to the small face comment. I've been "petted" kinda like a dog. I'm blonde, fair skinned and have freckles all over my face. I'm also short, for an american, at 5'3 (160) so not quite as scary I suppose. But girls (not children I mean women in their 20-30s) have reached out to feel my face and hair. Normally without asking.
Honestly I'd have to agree that even though I tend to get annoyed with Japan or Japanese people it's mostly ignorance (as opposed to racism) that make the majority of people act they way they do. Japan, as a whole, doesn't like change people are still quite cut off from the rest of the world. And despite some improvements to immigration it's still not an easy place to settle down.
That being said I've noticed that even with some close Japanese friends there's a lot of racism towards the Chinese. Coming from Arizona I feel that it's not unlike the US and Mexico at the moment. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up pretty much the entire thread. The amount of cognitive dissonance involved in demanding highly trained ALTs/NTEs while at the same time totally failing to recognise to have that you would really need the fundamentally shift the focus from temporary guest workers to long term residents is amazing, yet there it is. |
I don't disagree with anything here, but would point out that there a somewhat similar chasm between hakken and seishain workers. Companies like the cheaper wages of the former, but complain about the lower level of performance compared with the latter. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| I don't disagree with anything here, but would point out that there a somewhat similar chasm between hakken and seishain workers. Companies like the cheaper wages of the former, but complain about the lower level of performance compared with the latter. |
Oh, I know. Which is why hakken needs to die, but the complaint from the JTE wasn't so much the price. She was willing to support, say, higher wages for me, but she didn't seem to understand that one of the reasons ALTs who eventually wise up to the game, become a direct hire, make money and then leave, are so calculating because most don't have the interest and/or drive to stay put in Japan, because even staying put is somewhat of an uphill battle.
This JTE knows I'm not leaving Japan, but it is also clear she thinks (even though she would never say it) that I must be the only NJ ever to make that decision, at least the only one in the area. The idea that a great many more would choose to settle here if it was easier to do so is simply incomprehensible to her. Except I meet these fellow expatriates every other day or so. There are quite a few here in my new area, since it is a much bigger city. It's this attitude that I think will change as more and more Japanese are confronted by NJs, especially, yes, white NJs, who are able to look Js right in the eye and say, "You know, I generally like it here, I'm going to be a contributing member of society and stay." What are they going to do? Sono Joi?
The United States, Canada, Australia, and most of Europe have dealt with this same type of situation, and I think have been made all the better for it. Japan will too, and it won't stop being Japan. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ssjup81 wrote: |
| IMO, I don't feel that a lot of them are racist (of course you will have some actual racists), but more so those ignorant of cultures outside of Japanese culture or Japanese people. I mentioned before that my old Japanese teacher asked me about what my family's Easter meal consisted of. She asked if my family had a fried chicken meal. I wasn't offended or anything, but she didn't say it with malice or hate, she genuinely thought that's what my family would've had, which is why she asked. Do I feel this was racist? No, just ignorance on her part. Just because I'm black, doesn't mean I eat fried chicken, despite what the media likes to say. |
Really?  I didn't know anyonw knew that sterotype in Japan. I don't think that sterotype exists in England either and I always thought it was something that only Amerians talk about. I would guess that the teacher was maybe confused because in Japan they often think Christmas is a chicken meal and many people in Japan defintitly celebrate Christmas with KFC.  |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Kionon"]
| jmatt wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Sure, you'll never, ever, be accepted as "one of us," but it's the same in virtually any Asian country---hell, the vast majority of countries around the world---Japan's no different. |
Citation needed. Or at the very least, find me a high number of countries where this is the case and where there is not some terrible civil rights/human rights abuses. Plenty of places I can think of where you'll never be accepted as "one of us" and most of the places are places where I would be frightened for my life. I'll buy East Asian countries. I'll even buy this country or that country across the globe. I don't buy "vast majority of countries around the world" unless most of the "vast majority" are places where foreigners are likely to be killed in a civil war...
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"Citations needed"? It's a discussion, not an academic conference, and rhetorical flourishes are to be expected.[1]
Moreover, I'd largely agree with jmatt's basic point: *IME* many countries have the same basic attitudes as far as "local" vs. "foreign". I have yet to find one where people would consistently be accepted as "a local" as opposed to "foreign" regardless of how long they'd been there. NZ and OZ don't do it, the US certainly doesn't, Canada and germany don't. Russia is pretty pathological about it. Etc., etc.
1. Why do Americans so often do this in discussions? It's infuriating. It's as if conversation can't range and everything is a contest to them, that original thoughts or opinions must come from somewhere/someone "on high" with "qualifications" to justify any old statement. It's as if they've never had an evening at the pub, bullshitting with mates. I've even seen them do it among friends in the social equivalent of an evening at the pub. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
The United States, Canada, Australia, and most of Europe have dealt with this same type of situation, and I think have been made all the better for it. Japan will too, and it won't stop being Japan. |
Made the better for it? Well, I will disagree with you on that. The US is dealing with large numbers of immigrants from the poorer nations south of its borders and Europe is being flooded with hostile, highly fertile Muslims who often show heaps of contempt for the host nation. Not sure Europe is becoming better. And I see a point at which it will not be "Europe" in any cultural or even biological sense.
As others have mentioned, the Asian nations generally have a strong sense of ethnic identity, nationalism, etc. To be honest, I find much of this "gaijin" complex issue to come from Western (or is it just American?) naivete. Just because the US is evolving into a "propositional nation", with fewer and fewer linguistic and cultural cohesive mechanisms at work doesn't mean that everyone else will do the same. Just because contemporary Western thinking reduces culture down to its most base, materialistic level (food, clothing minus deeply rooted sense of identity, belonging and cultural behavioral patterns), doesn't mean everyone else will embrace a "one size fits all" culture.
Nor do I wish to justify unfair/discriminatory practices in Japan. I am also a gaijin, I go through the same things as you all do as well. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| Kionon wrote: |
The United States, Canada, Australia, and most of Europe have dealt with this same type of situation, and I think have been made all the better for it. Japan will too, and it won't stop being Japan. |
Made the better for it? Well, I will disagree with you on that. The US is dealing with large numbers of immigrants from the poorer nations south of its borders and Europe is being flooded with hostile, highly fertile Muslims who often show heaps of contempt for the host nation. Not sure Europe is becoming better. And I see a point at which it will not be "Europe" in any cultural or even biological sense. |
I think this is scaremongering and I don't know what you mean by Europena in a "biological sense" unless there are European genes or something. |
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Inflames
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 486
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| I don't disagree with anything here, but would point out that there a somewhat similar chasm between hakken and seishain workers. Companies like the cheaper wages of the former, but complain about the lower level of performance compared with the latter. |
Oh, I know. Which is why hakken needs to die, but the complaint from the JTE wasn't so much the price. She was willing to support, say, higher wages for me, but she didn't seem to understand that one of the reasons ALTs who eventually wise up to the game, become a direct hire, make money and then leave, are so calculating because most don't have the interest and/or drive to stay put in Japan, because even staying put is somewhat of an uphill battle. |
One interesting point is that haken workers aren't actually cheaper - it's just that they can be fired easily (and the company doesn't have to deal with putting out an ad and interviewing candidates). The comment about direct hire ALTs being paid more is laughable - it's almost entirely incorrect (maybe that direct hire is paid more than a first year teacher).
The problem with BoEs is that they're under the spell of ALT companies, who pretty much slander foreigners in order to win contracts. They all generally say they have strict guidelines for who to hire and are capable of evaluating foreigners' qualifications. Of course, I knew of one person who got hired by an ALT company that starts with "I" about 2 weeks after getting fired for sexual harassment.
The real problem is that there's no future in teaching as a foreigner at most schools. People who like teaching generally get a Master's degree and get a university job. People who study Japanese and become good at it can go out and get a job at a (foreign) company making a lot more. There's no opportunity for advancement at most schools and people rather quickly realize this. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Cool Teacher wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| And I see a point at which it will not be "Europe" in any cultural or even biological sense. |
I think this is scaremongering and I don't know what you mean by Europena in a "biological sense" unless there are European genes or something. |
I'm looking forward to steki expanding on both those points too. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Inflames wrote: |
| The comment about direct hire ALTs being paid more is laughable - it's almost entirely incorrect (maybe that direct hire is paid more than a first year teacher). |
Last figures I saw were for 2010, and I only really paid attention to the Tohoku numbers.
Average cost to a BOE of a direct hire ALT (assuming a contract broadly similar to JET) in Japan is ~5.6 million yen/year. Average cost to a BOE of a dispatch ALT is ~4.8 million yen per year. Average cost of a Japanese teacher at high school level to a BOE in the Tohoku region (wouldn't know about other areas, but there is variation) in their first three years of teaching was ~3.1 million yen per year. Once they hit the fourth year then they jump up to ~5.5 million/year and rise steadily from there on. |
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