Job Discussion Forums

[MESL]

I was here 10 years ago, too. Yes, the situation for foreigners has changed drastically. But there are still plenty of career and cultural opportunities. I'm a long way from telling my foreign friends to rule out China as a job option.

In Vietnam, you need ESL certification to get a work permit. In the Middle East, you need that certificate and a Master's. In other countries - Korea and Thailand, correct me if I'm wrong - you need a criminal background check. In Taiwan, you need settling in money. In Hong Kong, you need a teaching certificate. In Europe, the Brits have a geographic advantage. In Africa, expect to volunteer.

In China, the competition has increased as more foreigners flee the American economy and as the ESL option gets more news coverage and word of mouth coverage. The paperwork process has become more tedious. Teaching hours have gradually gone up. When I arrive, the standard for universities was 16. Now, many schools require 20, plus English Corner. Not paying foreigners for summer and winter breaks is becoming a trend.

But it's still a great place to break in, a good place to work, and a fantastic place to explore.

[MESL]

I was in Korea 10 years ago too. Because of the paperwork process, I have given up on Korea. I haven't given up on China.

[Simon in Suzhou]

[wangdaning]

I have only been here 4 years, but I do disagree with the content of the post.

1) Salaries are decent, but you have to look around. University, oral English, teachers can expect around the same as before. Part of this is that university tuition is not going up (a good thing). Personally I have gotten a raise every year I have been here. Not the highest paying gig, but enough to support two people and save.

2) Respect from who and what kind of respect. You want people to bow as you walk in a room. I am respected by my students, colleagues, and family. Don't know if the random person would respect me, why would they? They have never met me. I have been disrespected and over respected, it tends to balance out. Any interaction can go either way, a lot of it depends on what I do.

3) Workers rights? You mean the right to have no job? This will lead to having no visa, which will lead to leaving the country. I get decent treatment from my employer. Mostly this means leaving me be. If I have a problem I can ask for help. Not a horrible situation.

I think any of us can take these three points and give examples. The problem is they are not black and white issues. Is another country better? Well, it would be if you play your cards right. These are really conditions based on situation, China is just the background.

[TexasHighway]

I had no interest in going to Vietnam 40 years ago (luckily the USAF sent me to Taiwan instead...whew!) and I still have no desire to go there. Aside from my Taiwan assignment in the early 70's, I have been in and out of the mainland since the late 80's. Things are far from perfect here in China but I am not about to jump from the frying pan into the fire. I am happy where I am. I would write more but I am on my 2 1/2 month paid summer vacation!

[roadwalker]

Nice post Simon in Suzhou. And I agree with Wangdaning, too. TexasHighway, I've only vacationed in Vietnam, but I would consider working there. China has a lot of advantages over VN in terms of infrastructure, sheer number of decent jobs to choose from and, I think, traffic, if that is possible. On the other hand, VN has many things going for it as well. I snarked at the OP due to his exaggerated tone, but I too am happy he found good employment south of the border. We are lucky that we are able to choose among many interesting places to teach the world's second language.

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

[7969]

[7969]

[JZer]

[LeopoldBloom]

Nice to read such a wide range of responses to my original post. Let me just clarify some points that were raised by some. My response is general, after having read a couple dozen replies:

1) The salary difference between Vietnam to China probably is probably individual. My salary in Vietnam is double my highest salary in China. That's just me.

2) In China if you wish to leave your job, yes, you can get up and leave in most cases. But you'll usually have a very difficult or impossible time finding a new job in the same city or province and even in other places in China since many, if not most employers, require a recommendation letter from your last Chinese employer. In other words, if you came here, are ill treated or poorly treated by your employer, you can get up and go home or to another country (possibly). If you were working in your home country you could resign and look for a new position in the same city or province. In China generally no way due to this requirement and yes your past employer is always right.

3) I do stand by the lack of respect for FT's in China, at least when I left. Most Chinese will not come out and tell you this but I believe it is the case based on my perception.

4) I strongly agreed with a post by RogerWilco. It was brief and spot. FT's were, ten years ago, seen as people coming to help a developing country and now FT's are viewed as migrant workers. How are migrant workers generally viewed in countries? Exactly.

5) Many FT's get a lot of vacation in China but by and large-- go ahead check the jobs board-- salaries for those jobs are 4-6,000 a month with much of those vacation periods either partially paid or totally unpaid. I have 4 months vacation, all paid, here in Vietnam.

Good luck

Bloom.

[fred13331]

[voltaire]

Thanks for both your posts, Mr. Bloom. I sense your sincerity. You are just trying to help. I for one am convinced. I would much sooner go to Vietnam than China after reading what you have to say.

[therock]

[therock]