Job Discussion Forums

[stumptowny]

[/quote] I think often people are genuinely busy and forget about a message -- if you were working 12 hour days you might let the occasional message.[/quote]

flaky communication does not mean they have amnesia. they are smart people. and if you are the only gaijan they know, or that they've just met, they will not forget you. being genuinely busy is plausible, even then, they can send a message that takes 20 - 40 seconds to create send so don't buy that either.. that is what they tell us. it is not the truth when they are on trains, on their phones for 2 hours each day texting away..

[/quote] I think delays in communication may also occur when someone is occasionally not interested, but doesn't want to directly say no. It would be interesting to hear what kind of communications you have had ignored and/or in what ways you are inviting people. [/quote]

interest level... yes. but even when its perceived as high, the flaky still rears its ugly head. other times, I feel so so and poof, they are on it, surprising me. I have had good days, bad days.. but nothing I have done or said has ever predicted if the person is a competent communicator or will be with me. that is the flavor of this thread, yeah. if I had any discernible patterns, I would not have written this.. I would have it figured out..

[/quote]As far as flakiness--man, it's Japan. People aren't as straightforward and don't really care for those who are----vagueness is nice and the lack of directness can save face---but can be hard to get used to..[/quote]

yup yup and yup. sad but true for overall japan. talking about behaviors for the small areas within kanto (yamato, kichioji, shonan, machida) is pointless as these pockets are not likely to be havens of communication competence when the entire regional average is crap. as noted, the bigger differences regarding vibe come with larger geographic distance (west vs. east japan) but no one has confirmed whether communication is better as well?? we have been talking general vibe and openness but what about making plans, messaging, emailing et. for kanto vs. kyushu vs. kansai?? again, vibe is one thing. later, dealing with flaky poor communication from said cool vibe, is another.

[mitsui]

As I told my wife from Osaka, I said that you have to initiate everything. Otherwise you can't meet people.
But for her in Osaka, people are friendlier so she wouldn't be forced to be a social butterfy.

In Tokyo there is no spontaneity. Everyone looks at their schedule first. If they don't have the time, you don't meet them. THEIR WORK ALWAYS COMES FIRST.
In fact, people tend to socialize with people from their company. So if you don't work with them, you will rarely or never see them.

In Osaka, they work hard but when they have time, they want to go out to eat, drink, sing at karaoke and be merry.

Tokyo is different. It is like Sweden. People are proud and they value their privacy a bit too much.

[Tsian]

[stumptowny]

has anyone noticed a consistent difference in communication competence amongst japanese in different regions of japan? ktushu vs. kansai vs. kanto vs. hokkaido?

not how people come off (vibe wise). we know these differences already, but how they are at responding via email, messaging, texting... making plans to meet and general competence with these types of correspondence.

is kanto doomed or is the japanese average just about the same? we've had some great factors mentioned as to why it occurs but have yet to hear from anyone about actual differences they noticed in different areas of japan.

the short of it is, if i move to fukuoka, will I be let down?

[Tsian]

stumptowny, I feel your use of the term "communication competence" inherently biases the discussion in the direction of concluding that there is something inherently wrong with the way that (say) people in Kanto communicate.

Would it not be more helpful and conducive to discussion to talk about communication styles and norms?

[Cool Teacher]

I haven't ben to Tokyo for such a long time but I remember it wasn't as friendly as Osake. I once got told I couldn't go into a pub in Asakusa because I wasn't Japanese.

[stumptowny]

clearly we don't merit their free time! yuh think? captain obvious badges for the both of us... the communication woes for this thread regard new relations. established friends/girls are set so no worries there.. but even established friends/girls can be woefully delayed communicators here, lending credence to, it's the way it is here.

not sure if feigning interest in the moment is socially respectable for japanese. from my experience many women do say no, immediately. or they do the side-to-side hand wiggle up in the air (no thanks/don't bother me/I'm insulted that you, a stranger is being nice to me) or they just straight ignore you if you talk to them. but for the ones who say yes, or are engaged, or the vibe is perceived to be there, they flake because they can't ovary up in the moment and say no. yes, I agree. it's easier than to potentially feel uncomfortable.

what are we up against? I met a woman, very nice but pre-loaded with doubt and misperception about gaijins. she was off the gaijin grid (not a Hub hoochie momma, roppongi *beep*, or free eigo lesson seeker) normal japanese worker. she was a successful communicator in the early stages and later as well. what she shared with me at the onset made me realize perhaps what many j women maybe thinking. we met, had dinner, then back to my place. she was very hesitant just to speak and I was like, what is on your mind?? so she started in about how her friend told her about a bad experience with a white man. she even tried to share the message with me, like to verify that all white guys will be like that. it amounted to > defend yourself buddy or this goes no where. naturally i was insulted and let into her about getting to know me. making that effort. finally I told her, she was pushing me away. and asked why. the straight talk clicked something in her brain and she did a 180. anyway, this woman took the time to communicate what her thoughts were. I was luckily. many girls just think whatever they were told, then flake, somewhere in the process, leaving us hanging. can't imagine all the bad rap we have out there and the girls that cling to the misperception. a gaijin friend told me that j men tell the women that we are disease laden as well. maybe a stretch but I'm certain it has been said.. an many j women are just too lazy to think otherwise...
the criteria I use for success is rather simple in communication terms but next to impossible to find here. meet someone, exchange info, correspond with *reasonable* exchanges, make plans, meet again. off you go. the metric for each of these steps is the painful part. rarely in kanto are these steps strung together in an efficient manner like back home. it happens but not often. hence this thread.

so yes, once again. if there a region of japan where these communication steps can be strung together in a way closer resembling home? please, someone tell me fukuoka is great. that they initiate contact, respond consistently, achieve closure in planning and.... MEET! if even just a smidge better than kanto, I'd be stoked..

[stumptowny]

[mitsui]

Well get out of kanto and move to Osaka.
Learn and speak Japanese.

I can't say Fukuoka is a good place. In fact I heard the opposite, from a Canadian and a Japanese woman from Shikoku.

[Tsian]

I gather that you have had some rather bad experiences. Though I feel that you might meet more success if you avoided such direct "like home" communication styles.

I think it would be hard for most people to interact on a meaningful level with someone when their entire communication style has been dismissed as dysfunctional on some level.

I suppose I feel that you are expecting Japanese people to adapt to your communication style and are annoyed that they don't appear to be willing to do that. (You use of derogatory terms for people who frequent eikaiwa and Roppongi also suggests you don't think particularly highly of those who are making an effort to exercise their English -- so I'm not quite sure what your goal is.)

From personal experience:

I think I found it far easier to strike up random conversations with strangers in both Fukuoka and Kansai than I do in Tokyo (I actually became rather good friends with one person in Fukuoka that way). But, those random conversations didn't necessarily lead to deep relationships. I have found that most of my deeper relationships have developed with people who I have known the longest and with whom I have maintained contact with over extended periods -- even when those periods included blanks as large as a year or more. But I also only really started to be able to create those sorts of relationships once I started to play by the local rules. I certainly have Japanese friends who are more "americanized" in communication style -- but they tend to be people who have spent a few years abroad on exchange or working (and thus are able to switch between the two communication styles.)

[teacheratlarge]

Has anyone an unusual communication style, a few capital letters missing?

I'm not sure that Kanto area people really communicate differently. One major thing to note is a lot of them have moved here (and here I'm speaking for Tokyo more) from somewhere else, probably some 80-90% of the residents are not from here originally, so you might see a blend of communication styles in this region.

And yes, people tend to be work group/uni group/neighborhood (in some cases) orientated, so what your role will be with a shorter shared history in their lives may be marginalized to a degree. This is a major difference from some other countries, where you might make friends more easily within a shorter period of time.

[mitsui]

I do not agree. Tokyo people are not direct in public.

To us, expressing our opinions is a normal way of speaking, but not here.

There is something else at work. Years ago I went on a trip with my wife before we were married. We went down to Izu. We stayed at a nice little hotel and my wife talked to the owners. They were originally from Saitama and they were tired of working in Tokyo. So they decided to buy the place (pension in Japanese). Now hotel workers in the area have an association. Well these folks were not treated well and were treated as outsiders, even after years. Just being from Saitama and they are outsiders.
Well how about us? We are even more of outsiders.

Now the thing with Tokyo is that there are Japanese here from all over the country. For them to fit in, they have to speak the local dialect. And that becomes one of their priorities - to get along with the group.

[stumptowny]

capitals... who needs 'em. they are so 4th grade! too many teachers here i'm guessing? if your name is on my paycheck, i'll think about it..

teachratlarge: "80-90% of kanto people are not from here" I think this is way off. and remember other areas besides the center of tokyo are established families from kanto. kanto is much more than yomonote throwing range

I have had lots of good experiences here to. it's the unpredictability that wears you down.. hence seeking some anecdotal feedback that is trend worthy..

Tsian: I suppose I feel that you focusing on my terms is projecting your own negativity into my observation that gaijin friendly japanese people behave differently than those "off the grid" I am not sure why you are focused on my observation? perhaps you have not had much luck communicating with japanese "off the gaijin grid" or you live in ropongi and have large amounts of english chat friends.. I hope your experience is not so limited but both are ok.

striking up conversation can be done anywhere. I also agree it is easier in kyushu and kansai. again, this is not follow through communication though... what you get from random strangers on the street has little effect on whether they follow through with you after that meeting..

understanding trends is very helpful for people that are baffled by inconsistency. moving away is the obvious answer! won't kn ow till then but if anyone has any other cents, throw them in the pot, by all means.

[Tsian]

stumptytown; I'm not quite sure what you mean. I gathered from your posts that you have had a series of bad experiences in communicating with Japanese people, especially in Tokyo. I felt that your frustration was clearly expressed through your use of terms, and that your use of certain terms for people in Roppongi or those who seek out foreign friends in order to learn English was both indicative of your frustration and perhaps one possible reason for your some of your trouble.

But I gather from your reply then that you are having communication issues with people outside of what you refer to as "Hub hoochie momma, roppongi *beep*, or free eigo lesson seeker"s

In that case, I'm not quite sure what trend you are pointing towards. How would you classify the people that you seem to have trouble with?

As I said in my previous post, I have not had too many issues in maintaining relationships with friends in Japan. However, I will second what Mitsui said in that I have found that it is very common to create friends through defined relationships (such as school, work, or clubs) and that time is one necessary ingredient before people open up personally.

Of my current close friends, almost all are people who I went to school with or worked with for an extended period of time. I will admit that I found it difficult to create deep friendships during my initial period in Japan, but I slowly came to realize that time and a shared social bond are two of the most important factors in creating deeper relationships.

In that regard, I'm curious as to how long you have been in Japan.

Do you have most of your conversations with friends in English or Japanese?

I'm honestly really curious to understand the situation you are experiencing, because it isn't one that I have felt.

Although, again, I will stress that when I was first in Japan, I did find it rather difficult to create meaningful relationships. This, combined with the language barrier, certainly caused me a great deal of frustration and made me wonder what was wrong with all the people around me that they didn't want to have anything to do with me. It truly sucked. Combined with home-sickness it led to a lot of unpleasant nights.

But I eventually realized that I had done a lot of things which might be perceived as rude, and that I had also simply not given enough time to create the kind of relationships I was seeking.

I'm not meaning to suggest that you are in any way in a situation similar to mine, but I hope that my experience might be useful to you.

[teacheratlarge]

stumptowny posted