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'social harmony' or obedience? from japanese perspective...
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Tsian



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But by what standard are you judging everyone as unhappy?

Are there not many situations where people find happiness through the group dynamics as well?
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stumptowny



Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tsian wrote:
But by what standard are you judging everyone as unhappy?
your wheels are spinning but they are not touching the ground. I am worried about you..
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Tsian



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stumpytown: You have stated that the Japanese are "unhappy". I'd like to know what you base that on.
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumptowny wrote:
Cool Teacher wrote:
You do know "Utopia" means "No Place"? Where's the happier place that Japan should be like? Confused I think most Japanese are very comfortable lvinig in Japan and think the rest of the world is a mess. Being agro is not what many of them want even if it is what you want. Wink


utopia for the japanese people complaining about the state of affairs here would be something different. captain obvious statement of the year, I know. but the teacher who told me his feelings about the japanese obedience/coward reality had lived abroad in the UK. maybe the birth of his utopia? he did tell me he wanted to live in annecy france, in the rhone alps... a place i have been as well. but who wouldn't! it is beautiful and the people are mellow and seem outwardly sociable and carry a positive affect in public. point being it is the japanese perspective that matters in this thread.. that is what you are missing.

I didn't read your other thread. seems pointless from the title. great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people... you are more than welcome here if you contribute intellectually..


Two things: Nobody Japanese is here so you can't get that prespective Wink No need to be personal about my other thread or even talk abotu it. It's irrelevent here Cool but amusing that you are discussing your friend and Japanese people which means...1...2....3.... Laughing

Don't worry my friend join the clud. Cool
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stumptowny



Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Teacher wrote:
Nobody Japanese is here so you can't get that prespective


you've had some ding dong posts before but this bit is your picasso. in any case, have a great weekend.
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumptowny wrote:
Cool Teacher wrote:
Nobody Japanese is here so you can't get that prespective


you've had some ding dong posts before but this bit is your picasso. in any case, have a great weekend.


You too Sir! Cool
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stumptowny



Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbc's world update on july 5th was spot on. it was about the japanese recognition of the flaws inherent in being an obedient society but only regarding fukushima, not the unhappy working masses.

japanese parliament's new report called fukushima a "made in japan" disaster... a problem stemming from their top-down culture. the report states the disasters fundamental causes lay in the japanese conventions of obedience and a reluctance to question authority. bosses in japan like to have 'yes men' and the government bureaucracy surrounding fukushima was no different. nuclear regulators and operators maintain a coziness, as observed in many countries. what sets japan apart is the lack of effective communication when the events occurred via a deference to authority..

clearly, when things are working it's social harmony. when they are not, it is obedience. some japanese go as far as to say it is cowardliness for not doing anything to make standards of living better here. depends which side you are on as a japanese citizen. in a qualitative sense, disasters and system bureaucracies aside, if your life is miserable here, as my japanese coworkers, you would view the culture here as obedient and probably worse. especially if you have lived abroad and seen the light.

just think, if the japanese parliament went beyond the fukushima report, and broadened the problems of an obedient society to recognize quality of life as important, not just nuclear disasters. the japanese parliament shouldn't stop at fukushima. there are many more pressing problems stemming from obedience... depression, suicide rates, chronic fatigue syndrome, anxiety disorder. the people cramming you into the train, with the flat, withdrawn, affect, going home at 8pm every night.. yeah, apparently there are labor laws here and they are completely overlooked..

count yourself lucky to be an outsider here regarding working expectations and pressures... but if there is another disaster and your safety is being compromised... remember who is looking out for you. 20 people. 19 not willing to speak up and 1 too proud/stubborn/lacking information to admit any problems...
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Tsian



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is certainly an interesting point. Of course it is problematic that the English translation of the report in question did not faithfully reproduce the Japanese text (specifically, the initial English release clearly find fault with Japanese culture, as you say, whereas the Japanese report does not)

But I think that raises an interesting question:

If you were in charge of a committee tasked with designing legislation to "fix" Japan, in what ways would you want laws or conventions to change in order to improve the situation?
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tsian wrote:
That is certainly an interesting point. Of course it is problematic that the English translation of the report in question did not faithfully reproduce the Japanese text (specifically, the initial English release clearly find fault with Japanese culture, as you say, whereas the Japanese report does not)

But I think that raises an interesting question:

If you were in charge of a committee tasked with designing legislation to "fix" Japan, in what ways would you want laws or conventions to change in order to improve the situation?


That's easy: Tell people to be less obedient and they will be. Wink
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timothypfox



Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 492

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion got me thinking about differences between my teaching life at public in New York City and in Japan at a private high school.

New York:
Short work day

Big benefits such as super pension

Harassment from administration (occassional witch hunts and vendettas are the norm)

Expected to deliver data driven results

Expected to "differentiate" every level for every single student for disabilities and non-readers

Expected to change your approach to teacher and lesson style at the whim of the principle or the current teaching methology that is in vogue (expect huge changes every few years as the pendulum swings back and forth

No support in the classroom for troubled children (the dean's office and counsellor's room are already filled to capacity)

It's often the teacher's classroom - and teachers spend miserable amounts of time preparing for a dog and pony show to present great work to the prinicipal when she does her far too frequent walkthroughs

Write cleverly nuanced lesson plans that can be viewed at the whim of an administrator at a moments notice.

Whoever is the loudest and most bombastic will have a voice at meetings (expect free-for-alls sometimes and union administration wrangling)

Intelligent and innovative people will be held down as they are a threat to the heirarchy of the assistant principals and principals

Dissemination of information is piece meal - and inefficient

Students are often a nightmare to work with (and calls home to broken homes ineffective)

Staff can be great friends - and really know how to enjoy their free time with friends and family (be careful of who gossips to the administrators however! In the US, they are not on the same team as you!)


Japan:

Long work day including half day saturdays

Limited benefits

Great cooperation from administration

Expected to do your best

Expected to be professional

Lesson plans are up to you as long as you use the textbook
Issues with children will be discussed at great length - and solutions will be developed through consensus

The children are responsible for the appearance and upkeep of their classroom.

Quiet people can have a voice that is heard at meetings (but expect more top-down decisions to be made)

Teacher's will receive calendar of events that is clearly organized

Students are well-behaved and disciplined

Staff has tunnel vision and does not know how to have a good time or really make friends (party are nerve-wracking obligations)

The administrators work in the same room with you and assistant prinicipals tend to have a full teaching load - meaning you really have a lot in common with each other.
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timothypfox



Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 492

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion got me thinking about differences between my teaching life at public in New York City and in Japan at a private high school.

New York:
Short work day

Big benefits such as super pension

Harassment from administration (occassional witch hunts and vendettas are the norm)

Expected to deliver data driven results

Expected to "differentiate" every level for every single student for disabilities and non-readers

Expected to change your approach to teacher and lesson style at the whim of the principle or the current teaching methology that is in vogue (expect huge changes every few years as the pendulum swings back and forth

No support in the classroom for troubled children (the dean's office and counsellor's room are already filled to capacity)

It's often the teacher's classroom - and teachers spend miserable amounts of time preparing for a dog and pony show to present great work to the prinicipal when she does her far too frequent walkthroughs

Write cleverly nuanced lesson plans that can be viewed at the whim of an administrator at a moments notice.

Whoever is the loudest and most bombastic will have a voice at meetings (expect free-for-alls sometimes and union administration wrangling)

Intelligent and innovative people will be held down as they are a threat to the heirarchy of the assistant principals and principals

Dissemination of information is piece meal - and inefficient

Students are often a nightmare to work with (and calls home to broken homes ineffective)

Staff can be great friends - and really know how to enjoy their free time with friends and family (be careful of who gossips to the administrators however! In the US, they are not on the same team as you!)


Japan:

Long work day including half day saturdays

Limited benefits

Great cooperation from administration

Expected to do your best

Expected to be professional

Lesson plans are up to you as long as you use the textbook
Issues with children will be discussed at great length - and solutions will be developed through consensus

The children are responsible for the appearance and upkeep of their classroom.

Quiet people can have a voice that is heard at meetings (but expect more top-down decisions to be made)

Teacher's will receive calendar of events that is clearly organized

Students are well-behaved and disciplined

Staff has tunnel vision and does not know how to have a good time or really make friends (party are nerve-wracking obligations)

The administrators work in the same room with you and assistant prinicipals tend to have a full teaching load - meaning you really have a lot in common with each other.
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timothypfox



Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 492

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion got me thinking about differences between my teaching life at public school in New York City and in Japan at a private high school.

New York:
Short work day

Big benefits such as super pension

Harassment from administration (occassional witch hunts and vendettas are the norm)

Expected to deliver data driven results

Expected to "differentiate" every level for every single student for disabilities and non-readers

Expected to change your approach to teacher and lesson style at the whim of the principal or the current teaching methology that is in vogue (expect huge changes every few years as the pendulum swings back and forth

No support in the classroom for troubled children (the dean's office and counsellor's room are already filled to capacity)

It's often the teacher's classroom - and teachers spend miserable amounts of time preparing for a dog and pony show to present great work to the prinicipal when she does her far too frequent walkthroughs

Write cleverly nuanced lesson plans that can be viewed at the whim of an administrator at a moments notice.

Whoever is the loudest and most bombastic will have a voice at meetings (expect free-for-alls sometimes and union administration wrangling)

Intelligent and innovative people will be held down as they are a threat to the heirarchy of the assistant principals and principals

Dissemination of information is piece meal - and inefficient

Students are often a nightmare to work with (and calls home to broken homes ineffective)

Staff can be great friends - and really know how to enjoy their free time with friends and family (be careful of who gossips to the administrators however! In the US, they are not on the same team as you!)


Japan:

Long work day including half day saturdays

Limited benefits

Great cooperation from administration

Expected to do your best

Expected to be professional

Lesson plans are up to you as long as you use the textbook
Issues with children will be discussed at great length - and solutions will be developed through consensus

The children are responsible for the appearance and upkeep of their classroom.

Quiet people can have a voice that is heard at meetings (but expect more top-down decisions to be made)

Teacher's will receive calendar of events that is clearly organized

Students are well-behaved and disciplined

Staff has tunnel vision and does not know how to have a good time or really make friends (party are nerve-wracking obligations)

The administrators work in the same room with you and assistant prinicipals tend to have a full teaching load - meaning you really have a lot in common with each other.
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stumptowny



Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the problem needs recognition for working standards in general. this recognition is for an emergency/disaster in the form of an independent investigation commission.

similar communication problems have been confirmed in other disasters in japan. in 1985 a JAL flight flew into the mountains and while an american helicopter hovered over the crash site, offering assistance, they were told not to intervene and to leave the crash site. many survivors were reported after the crash but divided/contentious japanese authorities waited too long to get to the crash site so many people perished over night. it's ironic that a country with so much advanced warning (for earthquakes) bungles it up later with 'social harmony'. harmonious for those talking about what to do at the time and deadly for those experiencing the disaster.

not sure what the japanese would suggest as a solution. it is their problem so they need to address it in ways they deem culturally suitable. as outsiders we get whatever secondary blow back comes our way from the populace at large and, again, hopefully it won't kill us in a disaster situation.

I did mention to my co-worker, why not just leave work at a reasonable time, everyday? he said he would be isolated by the others. I said why doesn't your department or the whole school do it together or the entire district so there is some collective movement. he said nothing. I think bringing that up openly, amongst his peers and colleagues would be social suicide. penetrating these ideas into a subservient, group think school culture, and making them stick, without any threat is the trick. it is here the jte uses the word 'cowards' to describe japanese people not willing to speak up or do anything to create change. maybe he is a coward as well for just complaining to me and not his own. I understand his dilemma.

labor laws exist, he told me, but they are a joke... always overlooked.
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marley'sghost



Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumptowny wrote:
I did mention to my co-worker, why not just leave work at a reasonable time, everyday? he said he would be isolated by the others.


The Japanese working hours are crazy. I have a private student that I meet on Tuesday evenings, because Tuesday is the "no overtime" day at her job.....so she can leave at 6:30.......
I remember another student I had, we had lessons at 5pm-6:30ish at his office. His company was sending him overseas and had me giving him a crash course in survival English. I once mentioned how difficult it must be for him to work all day and then have to come and study. He got this big s**t eating grin and said that he loved his lesson days, because after the class, he could split and get home before 7pm.
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Pitarou



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tsian wrote:
Of course it is problematic that the English translation of the report in question did not faithfully reproduce the Japanese text (specifically, the initial English release clearly find fault with Japanese culture, as you say, whereas the Japanese report does not)
That's how the press is spinning the discrepancy in chairman's foreword, but I don't see it that way. If you read the rest of the foreword, and place it in the context of the report as a whole, I think the key sentence is:
Quote:
The consequences of negligence at Fukushima stand out as catastrophic, but the mindset that supported it can be found across Japan.
The sentence that's missing from the Japanese version defines exactly what that "mindset" is:
Quote:
� our reflexive obedience; our reluctance to question authority; our devotion to �sticking with the program�; our groupism; and our insularity.
But I don't think anyone who's lived in Japan needs that spelling out, do they? This sentence is for the benefit of those who are not familiar with Japanese culture, so it's not so inappropriate to omit it from the Japanese version.
Tsian wrote:
If you were in charge of a committee tasked with designing legislation to "fix" Japan, in what ways would you want laws or conventions to change in order to improve the situation?
Again, let's look at the foreword to the Fukushima report:
Quote:
� the most important [lesson] is one upon which each and every Japanese citizen should reflect very deeply. � In recognizing that fact, each of us should reflect on our responsibility as individuals in a democratic society.
I'd show the nation's educators that Fukushima was their fault. I'd make them understand that they preparing kids to be inserted into a social structure that prides itself on its technical prowess, yet is incapable of operating a nuclear power station responsibly. (Just like the school teachers of the 1940s were forced to confront the consequences of their overt militarism.)
Cool Teacher wrote:
That's easy: Tell people to be less obedient and they will be. Smile
Not as crazy as it sounds.
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