|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jmatt
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 122
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:58 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Compared to Western societies and from the Western standpoint, the argument can be made that Japanese, as well as other Asian societies, can seem pretty hidebound and conformist, but in my experience, when Japanese people step off the treadmill, they do some amazingly creative and idiosyncratic things.
The incredible amount of small, highly personalized and unique bars in Tokyo a testament to that..
Not to mention the amount of great music and art. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jmatt wrote: |
| The incredible amount of small, highly personalized and unique bars in Tokyo a testament to that.. Not to mention the amount of great music and art. |
have to agree with you here. there are some sweet spots around tokyo and pockets of uniqueness that help offset the bleah. shimo kitazawa comes to mind. japanese wishing to get off the treadmill (not necessarily creatively speaking) is the tough part.
if you live in japan (and your eyes are open) you see what is happening regarding obedience, making reports unnecessary. but acknowledgment from the Japanese is the report take away. in a country where rationality is questionable at times, with personality believed to be predicted by blood type and �100 million deaths with honor� as the WWII mantra before surrender, it is a step forward. unfortunately, from the report is this vague conclusion that falls flat �� each of us should reflect on our responsibility as individuals in a democratic society��� this is like a solution searching for a problem. a problem that is not yet accurately defined but often acknowledged by the working masses.
what is too much for japanese people (tokyo area in particular)? too much work? stress? obedience? at what point does productivity diminish? I am certain there is a sh*t load of loafing on the job. there is just not that much work to do for all of those crazy long hours. this is also an admission from my co-workers who report people are only looking busy most the time. for some, maybe constant work, but I am betting not for most. maybe it is just a really ineffective working culture where slow pain supercedes shorter, focused work days. if they paid overtime I am sure, suddenly, companies would notice existing labor laws. but its a black hole of fixed salary and overtime.
an admission of obedience�s effects on working standards (not just for emergencies) would be massive. possibly in other areas of life as well. but then there is the matter of individual thinking not being supported or reflected, let alone bringing change forward for everyday living standards. it�s a damn high bar and for those that are happy with life here, 'social harmony' is working fine anyway.
I wonder if there will ever be a breaking point where the unhappy populace is like, wow... look at us, working like crazy and miserable. lets change... or some cathartic, enlightening moment.. thinking never. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmatt
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 122
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stumptowny wrote: |
| jmatt wrote: |
| The incredible amount of small, highly personalized and unique bars in Tokyo a testament to that.. Not to mention the amount of great music and art. |
have to agree with you here. there are some sweet spots around tokyo and pockets of uniqueness that help offset the bleah. shimo kitazawa comes to mind. japanese wishing to get off the treadmill (not necessarily creatively speaking) is the tough part.
|
The Chuo/Sobu line stops from Nakano to Kichojiji another good example, especially Koenji and Asagaya.
I think that there are a pretty good amount of people around the country getting off the "salaryman/OL" treadmill, but it's not in the public eye, and Japanese people tend not to trumpet how "different" they are, unlike Western countries----especially the US, with its multitudes of "unique individuals" who inhabit places like Portland, OR and are as conformist as they come.
Also, there are pockets of interesting things and surprises all throughout Tokyo---it's such a vast city to explore. On my days off, I'd often travel to different areas of the city, armed with the detailed map (thankfully shrunk to an easy to carry size) that was a necessity to navigate through residential areas, and take long walks through areas I hadn't been before, stopping to eat and drink at new places. It's amazing the shit you'll come across stumbling through different areas around the city, and it's easy to see that there are plenty of people who don't subscribe to the typical corporate salaryman way of life; people who wouldn't think of ever taking English classes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stumptowny wrote: |
| at what point does productivity diminish? I am certain there is a sh*t load of loafing on the job. |
A lot of loafing, and a lot of mindless make work. Compare Japan to countries like Norway, where they have laws about working hours that are actually enforced, and yet they're not exactly poor.
| stumptowny wrote: |
| I wonder if there will ever be a breaking point where the unhappy populace is like, wow... look at us, working like crazy and miserable. lets change... or some cathartic, enlightening moment.. thinking never. |
I have mild hopes that the Fukushima disaster might be it. I mean, it won't change everything -- Japan won't turn into Norway overnight -- but the people will become a little more ready to acknowledge, "This is bullshit!"
Look at the protests over brining the nukes back online. The Economist says there's been nothing like it since Vietnam! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jmatt wrote: |
| stumptowny wrote: |
| jmatt wrote: |
| The incredible amount of small, highly personalized and unique bars in Tokyo a testament to that.. Not to mention the amount of great music and art. |
have to agree with you here. there are some sweet spots around tokyo and pockets of uniqueness that help offset the bleah. shimo kitazawa comes to mind. japanese wishing to get off the treadmill (not necessarily creatively speaking) is the tough part.
|
The Chuo/Sobu line stops from Nakano to Kichojiji another good example, especially Koenji and Asagaya.
I think that there are a pretty good amount of people around the country getting off the "salaryman/OL" treadmill, but it's not in the public eye, and Japanese people tend not to trumpet how "different" they are, unlike Western countries----especially the US, with its multitudes of "unique individuals" who inhabit places like Portland, OR and are as conformist as they come.
Also, there are pockets of interesting things and surprises all throughout Tokyo---it's such a vast city to explore. On my days off, I'd often travel to different areas of the city, armed with the detailed map (thankfully shrunk to an easy to carry size) that was a necessity to navigate through residential areas, and take long walks through areas I hadn't been before, stopping to eat and drink at new places. It's amazing the shit you'll come across stumbling through different areas around the city, and it's easy to see that there are plenty of people who don't subscribe to the typical corporate salaryman way of life; people who wouldn't think of ever taking English classes. |
kichioji... it is the park and the one small street leading to it really giving it the kichiojoji-is-so-great-vibe", not the cookie cutter pachinko/izakaiya/shopping near its station found at most stations. but green space in tokyo is another issue. the percentage of people jumping off the treadmill onto the unique individual treadmill is minimal unfortunately. fun for us to walk by these places and browse on our day off but these unique individuals would probably have complaints about the larger obedience treadmill cramping their style. most the adults in japan don't take english classes and are very obedient. some happy, some not. would be great to see more unique trend setting individuals not like the unique ones you have seen.. but who challenge the paradigm.. opening a shop and being unique is side stepping the in-your-face obedience woes of salaryman life. it also does not assure happiness or a break from obedience. I've seen a lot of these shops open long hours, trying to peddle their store-bought-cool. for these shop owners, its gotta be nice to not be surrounded by 100 placating robots and with music playing but not many japanese working adults are these types. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pitarou wrote: |
| stumptowny wrote: |
| at what point does productivity diminish? I am certain there is a sh*t load of loafing on the job. |
A lot of loafing, and a lot of mindless make work. Compare Japan to countries like Norway, where they have laws about working hours that are actually enforced, and yet they're not exactly poor.
| stumptowny wrote: |
| I wonder if there will ever be a breaking point where the unhappy populace is like, wow... look at us, working like crazy and miserable. lets change... or some cathartic, enlightening moment.. thinking never. |
I have mild hopes that the Fukushima disaster might be it. I mean, it won't change everything -- Japan won't turn into Norway overnight -- but the people will become a little more ready to acknowledge, "This is bullshit!"
Look at the protests over bringing the nukes back online. The Economist says there's been nothing like it since Vietnam! |
the work has just been so washed out, hasn't it, with long hours. productivity has taken a back seat to time in the office. that seems to be what is re-enforced culturally, not short, effective days. I just don't see fukushima changing things here. my hopes are not even mild like yours. I see it as a one off example of how obedience is not working that will quickly fade. it seems like a defeatist society.. I am not sure what it will take and frankly, its not my place to change it. they have what they want to have and thus must create the change for themselves.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
With regards to the idea of "obedience", I'm sure you're aware that there are protests taking place outside the PM's offices every day. Estimates range from 40,000 people a week or so ago to 75,000 - 170,000 this week. There have even been demonstrations in Fukuoka.
I think this is one of the most critical periods of Japan's post-war history, and that push could very quickly turn to shove. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
With regards to the idea of "obedience", I'm sure you're aware that there are protests taking place outside the PM's offices every day. Estimates range from 40,000 people a week or so ago to 75,000 - 170,000 this week. There have even been demonstrations in Fukuoka.
I think this is one of the most critical periods of Japan's post-war history, and that push could very quickly turn to shove. |
I did not know this. I watch nhk news but have never been to the PM's offices. maybe it is ongoing protest so not much coverage.. what are they protesting? nuclear power I'm thinking? great for them! push come to shove may be what it takes eh? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, one of the most telling aspects of the demonstrations is that NHK isn't covering them. There is some coverage on regional broadcasters and Western news outlets, however.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/16/world/asia/japan-nuclear-protest/index.html
Imagine that, the state broadcaster not broadcasting news about challenges to that state's authority. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Really! They're not covering it?
I hadn't seen it on NHK News, but then I don't watch it much precisely because it has such a strong propaganda feel to it. But still ... not covering a huge demo like that? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I've been making a point of discussing this with my students - opinion is, naturally, divided on the nuclear issue, but generally my students agree that it is truly shocking for NHK to so roundly ignore the protests. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pitarou wrote: |
Really! They're not covering it?
I hadn't seen it on NHK News, but then I don't watch it much precisely because it has such a strong propaganda feel to it. But still ... not covering a huge demo like that? |
I know BBC covers it.. a total utter waste with no japanese tv coverage! sadly, it makes sense.. social harmony it is not so why would they cover it? could be bad pr for nhk.. and then yes, it is like a state run news agency isn't it... just when people rise up, the tv tunes out.. these people may be hopeless.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
