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What Q's would you ask the parents of the kids you teach?
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Silent Shadow

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:08 am Post subject:

Lobster wrote:

Look, they need you to take care of the kids because both parents are working and the grandparents aren't around. Having the kid in school with other kids let's them socialize and the parents can say they are doing what they can to move the kids along. If they actually learn something, it's a bonus. Why do you think the summer and winter camps are so popular?

RED

I don't teach "kids". I teach in a university (yes I know they often view themselves as children etc. but the dynamics are nowhere near the same as for instance a language school for elementary students). The priorities of parents of university students entail more than what you claim, as has already been acknowledged in this thread.

I know there are general cultural attitudes in China that help us to confidently make statements of opinions without knowing much about the facts of individual cases. However, I think we would make a mistake if we assumed that parental concerns for their children are the same all over China, regardless of class, location, type of school and age of their children.

Ok, I've just looked at the original post, and, yes, LSK was talking about young learners, so I can understand your responses better now. However, the question I put forward would be more valid in a university, which is where I teach.

Lobster

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:16 am Post subject:

Sorry, I thought this thread was about kindy and primary age students and not young adult learners. RED

Silent Shadow

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:19 am Post subject:

We seem to have got our wires crossed. Maybe I'm off topic talking about university students, but I did mention I was a university teacher in my first post.

LongShiKong

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject:

Denim-Maniac wrote:

I wonder if you might be over-thinking it LSK?

A close friend of mine who is a parent to a 4 year old, and is part of Chinese growing middle class recently had her daughter in a pre-school learning English at the weekend. She just wanted her daughter to get familiar with English, and have fun. The daughter didnt find it fun, so they stopped sending her to the class.

Over-thinking it? Currently, there's a whole industry focused on preschooler ed starting from infancy although most of it is clearly pseudo-science. Ever hear of Baby Einstein?

Parents aren't stupid--they know at age 4, if it ain't fun, it ain't learning, but they do want their kids to learn. In my teaching, student enjoyment is as important a criteria as progress and that holds true for all ages.

I actually asked all 9 parents of 4 yr olds I taught last year (who'd forked out 10,000 in tuition) to rank the following in order of importance (10 being the most important)--notice that only 2 of the 9 ranked 'enjoyment' as the most important yet as an average, it's the least (the bolded # is the average):

a) Your child enjoys coming here:
9 10 9 10 10 10 6 3 8.4
b) Your child can recite the words and phrases from the course:
9 9 9 9 10 6 10 8 8.8
c) Your child can understand, ask and answer simple questions in full form:
10 10 10 9 10 4 10 10 9.1

Those kids were all socially developed enough to benefit from simple task-based learning but some of my current 4 yr olds are clearly less socially developed and require a more play-based approach with passive exposure to English. It'd be interesting to see how their parents would respond to that question.

-----------------

GeminiTiger wrote:

Silent Shadow wrote:

As a university teacher I would ask parents:

"Are you only or primarily interested in your child getting high scores, passing exams and acquiring that sacred degree, or do you want them to really learn and develop their skills and character?"

I wouldn't word the question exactly like that, but I would seek an answer to it.

If you need to ask this question you don't know China very well, yet. No ribbing intended, on either you or the Chinese. It's just a fact that most parents just want their kids to get a higher paying job. Personal development be dammed.

I'm not so sure about that but couldn't the same be said of American post sec students and their parents? Although, my focus is on YLs, Silent Shadow's raised an important point which applies to both. If I teach this age range again, I'll definitely ask that question.

LongShiKong

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:34 am Post subject:

Silent Shadow wrote:

...or do you want them to really learn and develop their skills and character?"

Come to think of it, 'Character Ed'--the tragically flawed approach to 'teaching' moral and ethical behavior in N.A., has made its way into ELT. Last year, I noticed it among the aims of the Longman course I was teaching to 4 yr olds. If Chinese parents can't impart ethical and moral concepts and behaviors such as sharing to their child, what makes mostly unilingual FTs capable?

The late Stephen Covey, author of 7 Habits of Highly Effective People has been widely credited with providing a much more effective model for developing character through the teaching of principled habits to kids as young as 5.

Silent Shadow

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:27 pm Post subject:

LongShiKong wrote:

Silent Shadow wrote:

...or do you want them to really learn and develop their skills and character?"

By "character" I mean attitude and discipline. I'm talking in my case, about university students taking responsibility for their learning, and not blaming others for any shortcomings they have or attitude problems they exhibit, unless they have good reason. I've had one or two expect to pass with irregular attendance or none at all. I didn't mention "moral or ethical behaviour". Character has many facets.

LongShiKong

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject:

Silent Shadow wrote:

By "character" I mean attitude and discipline.

Really? I'd be surprised if I were the only one who interpreted "character" in your context as implying much more than attitude and discipline. I'm starting to question whether we're witnessing another word lose its original meaning in the way that 'fame' and 'coward' have. As a matter of fact, Covey's success can be attributed to his calling for a return to valuing personal character and integrity over incidental status markers:

Once again, here's what you originally wrote:

..or do you want them to really learn and develop their skills and character?"

-------------------------------
Now, to address this irresponsible behavior / attitude problems:

Very simple, just resolve the following issues in the minds of your students and you'll have a class of keeners at your beck and call:
a) the low importance attached to oral English courses taught by FTs;
b) the personal commitment, intelligence and persistence req'd to significantly improve one's fluency;
c) the few jobs in China where they would actually need to speak with foreigners (apart from low-paying jobs in teaching and tourism);
d) the utter irrelevance of virtually all of what they've had to read in English in regard to what interests them;
e) unrealistic parental and societal expectations;
f) ....I'm sure you can add much more.

Silent Shadow

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:43 am Post subject:

LongShiKong wrote:

Silent Shadow wrote:

By "character" I mean attitude and discipline.

Once again, here's what you originally wrote:

..or do you want them to really learn and develop their skills and character?"

I'm not fully clear what your point is. Are you saying that in the context that I used the word "character", people would normally take it to encompass many facets of the word and not just assume I was talking about raising the level of student responsibility and improving their attitude?

Or are you saying that developing student responsibility, attitude and discipline in no way develops their character, because the meaning of the word character has nothing to do with such traits?

I'm sure you've heard somebody being described as having good character traits because they are well disciplined, organized, determined, have a good attitude and can overcome disappointments, opposition and setbacks. Would you disagree that somebody with the aforementioned qualities have good character traits or can be described as having character?

To give an example, I remember an England cricketer, called Michael Atherton. In 1994 he was the captain of England and became involved in a controversy where he was accused of cheating in a test match played against South Africa. There was a huge furore, and pictures of him allegedly tampering with the cricket ball were splashed all over the papers and his name was dragged through the mud. He was fined 2000 pounds.

The controversy had hardly died down before the next test match, but rather than let all the mudslinging get to him he produced a gritty batting performance that impressed even many of his detractors.

Would it be wrong in such circumstances to say that Michael Atherton showed character in being able to overcome a crisis/ setback that could just have easily destroyed his confidence? Isn't somone who overcomes such setbacks commonly said to have character? If Michael Atherton was also a disciplined, determined, and responsible person, could those qualities not be described as good "character" traits. This is what I meant by developing student character.

I'm not arguing with you here. I'm just trying to explain what I meant by developing the students' character (I was not referring to moral character, if so I would have used the world morals) and that I did not use the word character in the wrong context. Maybe I could have been more specific about what aspects of character I meant, but I don't believe that I used the word out of context. If I did, though, I apologize for the confusion.

As for the list of issues you mentioned, which need resolving, time restrictions mean I'll have to address those in another post.

GeminiTiger

Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 999
Location: China, 2005--Present

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:09 am Post subject:

LongShiKong wrote:

GeminiTiger wrote:

Silent Shadow wrote:

No it could not. Just look at the number of university degree programs that offer philosophy, religion, anthropology, sociology in Universities. It rounds down to 0% in China.

Also look at parents who put their kids in girl/boy scouts, casual sports, art programs, music programs (hobby - guitar), etc.

How many Chinese join programs raise money for cancer or another disease, to clean up highways or serve food at shelters or do something else useful?

Comparing China to USA on this issue is ridiculous.

wally72

Joined: 08 Jun 2012
Posts: 21
Location: Toronto

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: Question

Why are you so selfish?

LongShiKong

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject:

Silent Shadow wrote:

Are you saying that in the context that I used the word "character", people would normally take it to encompass many facets of the word and not just assume I was talking about raising the level of student responsibility and improving their attitude?

Yes. Even if I hadn't heard of 'character ed', I'd assume so.

Quote:

Or are you saying that developing student responsibility, attitude and discipline in no way develops their character, because the meaning of the word character has nothing to do with such traits?

We've all heard about the greatest minds who've dropped out or failed conventional schooling. Can't say they lacked character, can you? As are many highly independent and self-driven individuals, they weren't interested in becoming 'schooled' any longer. Now you see the point of my list?

You wrote:

I'm sure you've heard somebody being described as having good character traits because they are well disciplined, organized, determined, have a good attitude and can overcome disappointments, opposition and setbacks. Would you disagree that somebody with the aforementioned qualities have good character traits or can be described as having character?

No, of course not. They probably possess all the other traits associated with 'someone of character': honest, trustworthy, considerate, dependable, fair-minded, caring, even-tempered, etc. But could you not envision Michael Atherton whom I'd agree possesses good character traits as having the same attitude in language studies courses as your students?

My feeling is that character, as with personality, can't be taught--it has to be inspired. For those interested in this topic, here's Wikipedia's entry for character ed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_education
....and here's what seems to be the only successful alternative based on S. Covey's 7 Habits:
http://www.theleaderinme.org/what-is-the-leader-in-me/
-------------
Now, Back on Topic:

What would you want to know from the parents of the kids you currently teach?
For one, I'd like to know how well they do in their public school English and other classes and a 1-10 rating of how disheartened/ecstatic they were when their parents mentioned the possibility of additional English classes.

And again, back to my original question, what questions would you ask to prospective parents?

Silent Shadow

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:33 am Post subject:

LongShiKong wrote:

Silent Shadow wrote:

Yes. Even if I hadn't heard of 'character ed', I'd assume so.

Quote:

Or are you saying that developing student responsibility, attitude and discipline in no way develops their character, because the meaning of the word character has nothing to do with such traits?

You wrote:

I 've got the point. You want to find out what makes them tick or how to get them interested, or at least to find out what motivated them to learn English, if they were motivated. I understand your point about highly self driven people dropping out (Bill Gates, for one comes to mind) because of lack of interest. Finding out whether it was the subject, the way they were taught or if school itself is responsible for a students lack of interest, would certainly help in such cases.

However, most people who drop out do not go on to establish a multi national company and become one of the richest people in the world. Dropping out of university is fine if your family is financially secure, are prepared to help and know how to help you. It�s also fine if you already have something to go to, for instance a good job or something secure that you have established yourself. Finally an extraordinary sense of confidence and self belief that is well founded, may suffice.

I don�t believe the above applies to most people, though, and dropping out probably makes life harder for most of them. In China not having a degree for a student only used to studying, especially one who has already attended college or university for two or three years, could well lead to disaster. It�s hard enough for graduates with degrees to survive in modern day China. If a student drops out of a course, only because he�s not interested in school or the subject of the course and doesn�t have any of the safety nets I mentioned above, I think he�s not being responsible. On the other hand, if the amount of schoolwork is driving the student crazy; I mean real mental illness or the course is really of no use to them, then it probably would be best for them to drop out. If it meant not gaining a degree that would get them a step up, then they should consider that first, though. If you�re saying that you want to avoid students dropping out by finding out what makes them tick then I agree with you for the most part.

Actually, most of my students (university remember) show interest in my classes most of the time. Being the idealist that I am, though, I'm always looking for ideas to raise their interest and thus their achievement more. I totally agree that character can't be taught; if anything it�s mostly self acquired. I think responsibility, self discipline and resilience can be acquired with the following methods. I use inspiring quotes and ideas that I discuss with my students at the beginning of virtually every class, using metaphors that fit their environment and focus on issues in their lives. Along with that I train them by requiring that students be punctual, regular attenders, complete homework and class preparation, and focus in class. Their performance in these components should be reflected in their course score. As you implied, though, an attempt should be made to cultivate interest in learning.

There is one hard truth most of my university students need to accept, though. That is the fact that they will likely spend most of the rest of their lives doing things that they are not much interested in, but that they will need to do to if they want a decent standard of living. Hence, why I think it�s important for students, along with the necessary knowledge and skills, to acquire good self discipline, and to be resilient, and responsible, regardless of whether or not they are interested in school. In a perfect world everybody could spend their life only doing things that they are interested in. Unfortunately, only a few individuals are able to do this, especially in China.

That�s why the question I mentioned earlier in the thread would be the first question that I would ask the parents of my university students. I could ask the parents what makes their Billy or Sally tick, but I could ask the students themselves, that question. However, what their parents think about their child�s learning could only really be found out by asking their parents. After many years teaching university/ college students in China I've come to the conclusion that the qualities that I've mentioned in this thread are more important to them than anything else, apart from the necessary skills and knowledge. Because high exam scores, degree certificates and the like will be next to useless once they start working.

I do my best to cultivate student interest in class, but some students are studying/ majoring in stuff that they will never be interested in, no matter how creative, and inspiring I am in class. Unless those students have good reasons for dropping out they need to accept that they have to learn to stick at tasks they don�t like until completion, if they want to succeed in life.

Thanks for a stimulating thread and some interesting links. I'm a bit pushed for time these days, but I will address those points you mentioned when I get a chance.

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