Job Discussion Forums

[vabeckele]

[inhanoi]

Er, the teacher or school pays the fees for the paperwork. So no teacher = no paperwork= no fees.

[vabeckele]

[inhanoi]

No, it's not cool too, it's one or the other.

[vabeckele]

Ok, you know best.

[LettersAthruZ]

[inhanoi]

Please explain what your problem is with what I wrote, instead of making childish, cryptic comments.

[LettersAthruZ]

My interpretation on the point that Sigmoid had made ("Stricter regulations have no effect other than to create a EFL teacher shortage, jobs for bureaucrats and revenue for the state.") is that if Viet Nam is going to ACTIVELY ENFORCE the ESL certificate AND university degree requirements of incoming teachers, much like, say, that nation that sits between Japan and China does or wealthy Arab nations do, then they are setting themselves up for a shortage of qualified instructors! And the few ESL instructors who DO have legitimate certificates AND university degrees that decide to come here are going to be thoroughly vetted by The Powers That Be before receiving their Work Permits!

And that IS a good thing......

HOWEVER, the point I'm trying to make is that said qualified candidates are going to have everything verified (as it should be) and this process is NOT going to be done overnight...it'll take time! Therefore clock-hours by Government Staff to go through all of the verifying of a new teacher's paperwork are going to be increased greatly, which will INCREASE the cost in both, time and money, for the prospective applicant (or, in some cases, the cost to his or her employer) to OBTAIN his or her Work Permit.

I am NOT a big fan of the great unwashed coming over here to try their hand at teaching English in order to make a living, but if The Powers That Be see their....*ahem*......tea money drying up from fewer and fewer new applicants who DON'T hold a university degree or who DON'T hold a legitimate ESL Certificate, they are NOT going to just let that "revenue" go away because of a crackdown on the rules - they're just going to make it THAT MUCH MORE difficult (as well as that much more expensive) for those of us (or for our employers, as the case may be for whoever is footing the bill for the Work Permit) who DO hold proper paperwork.

And there's some guy or girl with a university degree AND proper ESL cert.....and they're examining all of this - Headache factor vs. monetary remuneration.......

....do you really think, factoring in paid physical hours in the classroom and unpaid lesson preparation hours, that guy or girl is going to choose VIET NAM and its remuneration package over what is offered by, say, that nation that sits between Japan and China or wealthy Arab nations??

[sigmoid]

Yes, A-Z, that's pretty much my point.

Before:

People only had to pay for visas [no taxes, no work permits], so the state received less revenue.

And, due to fewer regulations, more people were willing to show up and give teaching in VN a try.

After:

Now people (or their employers) have to pay taxes and spend money on work permits, thus the state receives more revenue.

And, because the process is arduous and unclear, fewer people are interested in teaching in VN. Those with good experience and qualifications can make more money more easily elsewhere. Newbies are still welcome in other countries.

[DNK]

Given that the alternative (domestic English teachers) are worse than unqualified, there should be no reason to restrict "unqualified" native speakers from coming in. Such qualifications are for countries that actually have high standards already in their domestic workforce. Vietnam doesn't.

Vietnam should be ringing the dinner bell and calling in as many teachers as they can to depress prices and flood the system with at least half-competent English instructors. Backpackers can't structure lessons and courses or go through the finer language points, but the also will never teach the students to say "I do test make mark good with teacher, parent happy because can go university study doctor."

[vabeckele]

One particular minister is payed around 5 million VND a month. The rest of his pay comes in the forms of benefits: house, car, cleaner etc...but what causes the problem, as you can see is the lack of any real cash. The system is set up so corruption is inevitable.
The same with surgeons; pay is about the same as the minister without the perks. There is a perk of 30 cents though for every completed open heart operation.
The language centres fair no better; I have seen regular visits from the tax man getting his cut, and this cut can be hefty. Perhaps a fire and safety check needs to be done - hands in the pocket again.
The problem with us (teachers) is that we demand transparency.This causes problems. For one, a local can survive very well living under the radar and paying off his cousin. We cannot do this. This lack of a social network is a major drawback for us as we don't understand it and need some kind of safety net. This is where is becomes complicated; you may, directly or indirectly be knee deep in it when you suddenly need to become, 'legal'.
All of a sudden all around you are in panic. You have rung too many bells; now the guys feeding at another level are involved and want their cut to do their job. Getting it at both ends doesn't begin to describe the complications of this.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

[inhanoi]

vabeckele: "The same with surgeons; pay is about the same as the minister without the perks (5 million VND a month). There is a perk of 30 cents though for every completed open heart operation.... The problem with us (teachers) is that we demand transparency."

Oh, please. Give me a break. The average QUALITY teacher in VN gets TEN TIMES that much per month. You people are pissing on yourselves.

[snollygoster]

"You people are pissing on yourselves."
Ooo ahhhh! I didnt think we were allowed to say poo, bum or wee wee on this forum.
"The average QUALITY teacher in VN gets TEN TIMES that much"
I know plenty of "quality" teachers in Vietnam-locals with a real TESOL cert, that is an MA Tesol, not the 5 day quickie one like foreigners get where you learn to dance in the class-room to the "woggerly wee" and play board-slap, and they CERTAINLY dont get 10 times that much. (You quoted 5,000,000VnD- so 10 times that is 50MVnD). In fact not many foreigner ESL teachers get that much either-(some do,and more, but certainly not the majority.)

So give you a break? OK-take a break.

[sigmoid]

If you've ever worked in other countries then you'll know how easy it usually is to be legal in more normal places.

Expats living elsewhere don't have endless debates and discussions about the process. In fact, the topic rarely, if ever, comes up.