Job Discussion Forums

[mcloo7]

Thank you, I just ordered the Scrivener book yesterday.

[The Edge]

Accreditations such as CELTA are not required in China unless you want to enter into the upper echelons.
A bachelor degree will more than suffice if accompanied with a basic TEFL cert for entry positions.
Don't waste your money on CELTA for China.
Other countries: YES.

[Denim-Maniac]

I never did teacher training for China. I did it for me, to be a better teacher, to be more aware of what I should do and why. Im actually starting a DELTA course this month, again ... not for China, but for me.

I would still suggest its a worthwhile investment for anyone, regardless of location, although its value could be weighted against the type of teaching. Probably not much use for teaching kindy for example.

Anything less than a CELTA is a waste of time and money. Avoid.

[The Edge]

[mcloo7]

I understand that you may not need it for China but what if you have no experience and no clue how to teach? Don't you have to do something? And from what Ive heard alot of the cheap TEFL courses are really a waste of money.

[7969]

[Denim-Maniac]

^^^ agree.

To some degree, perhaps taking a CELTA is more important for those in China that those elsewhere! Lets face it, most jobs in China are not very likely to offer any training of preparation, any mentoring, or any real support. On that basis, taking an entry-level course like a CELTA or Trinity prepares someone with a lot of the basic tools needed to enter a classroom and deliver something like a lesson. My own first experience in China was in a middle school, and my training was little more than being sent into a classroom for 20 minutes with the instruction, 'Just speak English to them'.

[ecubyrd]

[7969]

[Denim-Maniac]

Maybe Ill get in touch with CELTA and see if they'll pay me on the same kind of deal they offer the Chinese 50-Cent army. A small fee for every pro-CELTA post would be nice wouldn't it?

Seriously though, how often do people berate EFL in China (and elsewhere) and complain about not being taken seriously or not regarded as much more than a white face to attract students? Quite a lot I think.

Then, when faced by a question from someone with no relevant qualifications, no teaching experience, who would appear to be unsure of what to actually do in a classroom, wondering about the value of training ... is told not to bother! It really is no surprise EFL is poorly regarded.

I honestly believe the course is a good investment for anyone. This is the same for people going to the EU or to China, and the only time I wouldnt recommend it is for people who are going to teach in kindy type jobs. The skill set learned probably doesnt really transfer to that kind of work Im guessing. (That is just a guess BTW, Ive never worked with young kids). How many people pop up on the forums and talk about what a hard time they've had in China? (they do the same on other country specific forums too) And I always wonder how many of those had any training or support during their job, or before starting it. Id wager there is a relationship between the two.

It isnt a hard job, assuming you know what you're doing. And frankly, many people dont and that certainly isnt a secret. Ive always taken my work quite seriously, and my first year was quite tough at times, then I completed a training course in 2008 (I did a Trinity rather than CELTA) and it was like opening my eyes to something that made my life a lot easier.

ecubyrds suggestion that I needed the training (and the idea that others dont) is absurd to me. I first entered a classroom at 36 years of age so wasnt the awkward nervous graduate. I had done extensive travel and charity work so already had some empathy and cultural understanding, and had also worked in sales so had some rapport building skills.

In my experience I have found CELTA/Trinity trained teachers have the best potential to be good EFL instructors. It isnt a given that everyone who completes a course is a good teacher, but the fact that they have done a course gives them a chance at being good. The fact that most half decent employers around the world expect employees to have CELTA / Trinity as a minimum qualification suggests they do have value.

I have worked with in excess of 25 certified state school teachers (most of them from the UK) and whilst they do have some skills in classroom management / rapport and other skills you would expect, I havent met one who has any knowledge of EFL methodologies or any real language awareness. Those people would struggle to become great EFL instructors.

Then you meet people with none of the above. And really you don't know what you're going to get with them....but unearthing a fantastic EFL instructor from them is like finding the proverbial needle in the haystack IMO.

I was a course tutor on a CELTA-esque course earlier this year. As part of that we observed other classes taught by people I worked with, including state certified teachers. The results of my observations both as a course tutor and a staff room colleague would support my views. Indeed, its the experience from 3 years in China and 5 summer seasons teaching EFL in England that have shaped my views.

One US state certified teacher of English saw me copying a sheet of IPA transcribed sentences reflecting connected/contracted speech with examples of intrusion and asked me what language it was. She also told me English people were weird if they worried about when to use present perfect continuous and present perfect. She was one of the teachers I observed as a course tutor, and yes, she was popular, had a friendly manner in class etc ... but her class was shocking IMO. I wouldnt employ her. That is not the only example. I have met other certified teachers who happily admit they dont know much about EFL.

And thats fine. I dont know how to teach GCSE History to 30 teenagers in a state school either.

Bottom line - Do you need it to secure a job and visa - No.

But will it help you do a better job - Yes.
Does doing a better job make life easier and reduce student / admin complaints - Yes.
Would that make China more enjoyable, even for a year - Yes.

And you can transfer the course for some university credits if you decide EFL isnt for you and want to do something else.

[ecubyrd]

[7969]

It is over the top to suggest that a state licensed school teacher has little chance of becoming a good esl teacher. Much of the skills and training are transferable and if one can master a one or two year teaching program they won't have much trouble absorbing or adapting to any CELTA content their own training overlooked. Interesting to note that the CELTA appears to be a clone of a military instructional techniques course that has existed for several decades.

[Denim-Maniac]

Its all good natured chat, and I dont mean (or take offense). All of our posts are based on our own experiences of course. My personal experience is quite often mirrored on the general and newbie forums here .. Its quite common to see other members teaching in other locations report the same experience, with state teachers often finding it hard to adapt to EFL classrooms.

Of course I would agree the rigours of gaining qualified teacher status in the UK is far more challenging than passing a CELTA, but that qualification doesnt trump the need to understand IPA / The English tense system / language awareness etc etc. In my experience holders of QTS often believe that's enough and dont take any interest in learning EFL / CELTA stuff. And that stuff is as applicable to teaching in China as it is teaching anywhere, assuming you know how to do it.

A year or so ago I applied for an EFL job, and the pre-interview task was to prepare a 45 minute lesson plan teaching any aspect of the present perfect using adverbial time markers for a small adult class, noting that 3 of the students were French. A difficult task perhaps, none of the state teachers I have worked with could do this. Some of the CELTA types could attempt it, the DELTA holder and MA TESOL I know can do so easily.

Regardless of the country we teach in, I really think recognised job specific training has to be recommended. CELTA etc really is just entry-level stuff and requires fairly minimal investment in terms of time and money really. Few 'professional' jobs have such low barriers to entry. Anyone with a few years experience should then reallly be looking to continue their education with DELTA / MA etc.

I know people say 'I want to try it for a year and see if I like it first', but I would argue that you are far better positioned in make a decision about EFL after one year if you have been subject to some training before actually doing it.

[Sashadroogie]

[7969]

The military's good for more than just getting you wasted