Job Discussion Forums

[Ediyanto Liu]

Dear all,

My great appreciation to all of you for the contribution to the nationality issue I posted earlier. I now have a clearer picture of what the common practice of staff recruitment in China is like and have become fully aware of the possible rejections and obstacles I may face in the event that I finally venture into this country with 'hugely increased opportunities of making money' (to quote Roger抯 terms). Honestly speaking, I was initially a bit deterred by the dismal disadvantages and facts of being an Asian revealed by some replies. But like what Roger, Stevens and MT have said, I could not agree more that a huge dose of persistence and perseverance is the essential key to survival and accomplishment.

Now allow me to reply in brief to each contributor:

Roger, Stevens and MT: What you guys have said has all been well-put in balance and I find it very encouraging.

Arioch36 and Stephen: What you suggest makes a lot of sense to me! Arioch36, that's a very enlightening experience. But as you are a native speaker, I assume, showing up in front of their doors is like 'the king of wealth pays them a visit' (to use the Chinese proverbs). Certainly I won't dare to have the slightest idea of being given a warm welcome like that of yours


Gouki and Stephen:

Gouki wrote: I think you should teach in Singapore because their standard of English is still not up to scratch and you get better pay there. If you have 5 years experience, then I'm sure you can command a minimal salary of about $1800-$2000 per month.... Financially speaking, Singapore is a better prospect for you.........I believe the national language in Singapore is Malay. Singaporean English is pathetic.

Having been here and done that, what you describe about Singapore English (or better known as "Singlish") is absolutely true, but you may have overlooked the fact that Singlish is only spoken by either the older uneducated generation who picked up the language without going through any formal education or young children whose parents never attended schools and did the odd works. To the best of my knowledge-as I have been in this country for almost two years-what is annoying about their English is their accent, which is heavily influenced by their Chinese dialects. Apart from that, I do not think there is anything wrong about it. I may have got the wrong impression since I only hang out with the undergraduates and graduates at my university. And fortunately I am not Singaporean and I have been learning to speak English with the RP since my high school, which I take pride in as no one would easily trace my country of origin from my accent.

While people outside Singapore are misled into thinking that Singaporean English is not up to the scratch, qualifying as an English teacher at a public school (at primary, secondary, or junior college level) nowadays is by no means easy, unless you are either a Bachelor's degree holder in Education from OZ, NZ, UK, CA, or USA with a few years of teaching experience or the local graduates of its one and only most recognised teachers training institute. If you are one of the latter, you are virtually guaranteed any teaching job-both at a public school or private language schools islandwide. Each year the number of foreign students from South East Asian countries seeking admission to the public schools are increasing. Before they can sit for the entrance exam, they will have to attend English preparatory courses offered by private language schools, which charge an exorbitant tuition fee. Ironically, the number of local students seeking admission to overseas colleges or universities are increasing as well. To do this, many of these students, who have been denied admission by the two distinguished local universities, have to prepare themselves for TOEFL or IELTS. Hence, these are the two business niches people in ESL field here are trying to fill. The first niche will be easily filled by the local teachers as they are well-equipped with what it necessarily takes to get these foreign students admitted. The latter niche is left to be occupied by ESL teachers who are familiar with TOEFL and IELTS, GMAT if necessary. (And English Language or General Paper in GCE 'O' and 'A'!)

Note: I hope what I have described above and below will provide Stephen a little picture of the ESL field in Singapore. This is my personal observation and Gouki perhaps may see it in a different way.

I agree with Gouki that financially I (may) have a better prospect here, though this may not hold true at the moment as the job market is very gloomy in all fields of work as he rightly puts it in his latest post. Again, since I am not Singaporean and am not a graduate of that distinguished teachers training institution, and given the economic downturn and recent SARS scare, my prospect of securing a full-time ESL job here is even getting dimmer. Unless I am an MA holder from any second class uni in OZ, UK, USA, NZ, or CA, I will easily secure an English language lecturer post at the local polys which pays handsomely well (salary can range from SG $2,750-5,500/month commensurated with experience of course). For comparison, an assistant professor in my uni earns at least SG$6,000/month. An associate professor pockets in about 10,000 - 12,000/month. At present I am lucky enough to have a part-time job which pays SG $25/hour for a two-hour session at the local language center (i.e. equivalent to RMB 125/hour). I know a friend of the previous batch at my uni who is paid SG $2,500/month for teaching 20 hrs a week and doing some 20-hr-admin work in a private language school. Another friend told me about a Caucasian expat with an MA degree who is paid 2500 putting in 20 hrs a week without the admin work attached!

Having said all these, I know I should hang on for a while till the circumstances here get better. But there is more than 'better prospect here' reason that I look forward to China, which I cannot disclose here apart from my love for travelling.

By the way, are you sure the national language of Singapore is Malay? As far as I'm concerned, their national anthem is written in Malay. Their medium of instruction at educational institutions is English, which is the reason why they oblige an applicant to the local uni to enclose their TOEFL or IELTS score as in my case almost two years ago. Malay is now the second language and so are Tamil and Urdu.

hubei_canuk:

My apology that I seem to have been late te reply to all the posts. It's really saddening to learn of the fact that the employers in China only care about the race and the look of the prospective teachers. But if that is the accepted belief and practice, what can one do but to respect that? As Gouki puts it: There is a reason why schools would rather employ foreigners at 4000-5000 yen than natives at 1000-1500 yen.

Anyway, that's all for now. As I have not made up my mind, surely I will be looking forward to more input from current or other posters.


Regards,


Eddie.

[hubei_canuk]

Eddie:
Add some info for you:

Hi,
I would just like to add that i have been in China/Taiwan 10 years and i have been recruited and i have recruited others.
And i will add a note to that that i never let any of my people get cheated. I forced all contracts AND APPENDIXES to be signed and stamped before the teachers even bought the tickets.!!
..
so my information comes from the horse's mouth. Rather, the hirers at the schools themselves and the Foreingn Affairs oOffices which co-ordinate for the schools.
I usually send a photo and state country of origin. That often is all that is needed.
I didn't mention the black people because it was not relevant here but blacks frrom Zambia were hired at my old school in Hunan. Also NZ native people were hired in Changsha.
Here in West Hubei:
Chinese American from NYC ..OK.
Asian-American girl ... ok!
Blacks,.. no!
Russians .. NO!.
Swiss ... yes
Finland... yes.
Romanian girl ... yes.
Israelis... yes!
Danish yes!!
There are some more from some baltic countries, i don't know them too well.
In Yangshuo, in a poor province but with a lot of opportunity, .. there is an indian, with very good english.. he gets by in non standard situations. Not sure how well he does. Don't think he can land a standard contract with all the frills.
Preferred is alway:
american
Canadian
British
NZ
austrailian
usually in that order.
...
Hypocritical putting the yanks first and railing against them politically.
The standard in schools is British textbooks .. and of course everyone wants to learn American English.
...
It's may not be hopeless eddie, but you may have a hard time.
That Indian guy has done somewhat well. He is very entreprenurial.
----------------------

Add another old post:

Eddie:
Being CHINESE and not from a western country will make it very very difficult.
People aren't hired here primarily because they can teach.
They want the Western image. Young and female is the best.
Chinese from America has made it where i know.
Chinese from Asia almost no chance. They could just hire a chinese from China at one tenth the pay.
My local guys won't even accept Russian. They have taken Young women and men from satellite countries of USSR and Finland Switzerland etc. They want that Western look.
That's in the circles i know in the interior. Check out the high class places in Beijing Shanghai and GZ.
...
Remember, I'm only the messenger. Don't shoot me.
I've been scalded because i am not young in Taiwan.
Never think of this as a real teaching job but first as a PR job.
...
You want a job, you send a photo by email and see the reaction.
Photo is the qualification.
Where i am that's about all they care to see.
===============

[Redfivestandingby]

I'd like to correct something I read often. We need to get into the habit of saying "white" when we are refering to "Western" people when talking about the preference that Chinese people have when hiring teachers.

Sometimes we Westerners fall into the same habit. When people refer to "Western face" they really mean "white".

I'm a non-white Western person and it's been hell trying to find work even though I have a Master's degree and have been doing this for 3 years in China. Most employers don't even bother to answer back once they see the ever-important-hiring-diagnostic tool: the photo.

I agree once again with MyTurnNow. Chinese will get upset if their teacher is not white. Some will feel cheated and demand their money back or want to switch to a white teacher's class. This has happened to me several times.

To contrast this, I know of a French young man (about 1, no university degrees, who makes about 1000 US dollars a month teaching English even though he is not a native English speaker. Amazing!!!

Keep at it though. There still are institutions that actually care about learning but you'll probably have to travel away from the big metropolitan areas where the chances of hiring foreigners is low. And you're gonna have to work much harder to convince your students to accept you. It's hard but it's possible and the outcome can be very rewarding.

Good luck!!!

[Roger]

...and to add another angle, maybe saddening, maybe maddening, or both:
Avoid well-known big cities with large airports and consulates of Western countries because such places are crowded with white Westerners. Also, in these places employers tend to be more unscrupulous because competition is strong not only for jobs but for classes.

I know of a training centre in Zhongshan, west side of the Pearl River Delta, not a touristy place (although hardly any CHinese city does not boast of a Zhongshan Lu!), and it had a very happy African lady working there.
(Contrast that with Guangzhou, where I taught at Linguaphone which had two Filippinas of CHinese stock and one Korean-American: SInce parents complained about this "Chinese" man, he had to go although he was a native american-English speaker, whereas the Filippinas looked so "foreign" they could keep the jobs with no problem).

I had been in touch with a Nepalese in Guangxi. His contract has been renewed.

When China will rule the world, there will be no more TEFL jobs here any more in revenge for years of humiliating preferential treatment of foreign devils to the detriment of Asians...

[hubei_canuk]

"I had been in touch with a Nepalese in Guangxi. His contract has been renewed." -roger
------------------------------------

DINGRI!!!
My old friend!
..
yes-no-yes?

[Gouki]

"Having been here and done that, what you describe about Singapore English (or better known as "Singlish") is absolutely true, but you may have overlooked the fact that Singlish is only spoken by either the older uneducated generation who picked up the language without going through any formal education or young children whose parents never attended schools and did the odd works."

English is taught at school, not usually at home. Quality is largely reliant on the teachers, are they locals or foreign experts in English?

"To the best of my knowledge-as I have been in this country for almost two years-what is annoying about their English is their accent, which is heavily influenced by their Chinese dialects."

Accent is not a problem, its the use of grammar that is the main problem. As most of us know, if you translate chinese directly to english, it is very raw. This was where Singlish developed its form.

"While people outside Singapore are misled into thinking that Singaporean English is not up to the scratch, qualifying as an English teacher at a public school (at primary, secondary, or junior college level) nowadays is by no means easy, unless you are either a Bachelor's degree holder in Education from OZ, NZ, UK, CA, or USA with a few years of teaching experience or the local graduates of its one and only most recognised teachers training institute. If you are one of the latter, you are virtually guaranteed any teaching job-both at a public school or private language schools islandwide."

Basically, if you have teaching qualifications, and had lived in a native English speaking country for at least 12 years (6 years of primary school, 6 years of secondary school), then I think you would have the same chance as any other native English speakers with similar qualifications.

"Each year the number of foreign students from South East Asian countries seeking admission to the public schools are increasing. Before they can sit for the entrance exam, they will have to attend English preparatory courses offered by private language schools, which charge an exorbitant tuition fee. Ironically, the number of local students seeking admission to overseas colleges or universities are increasing as well. To do this, many of these students, who have been denied admission by the two distinguished local universities, have to prepare themselves for TOEFL or IELTS. Hence, these are the two business niches people in ESL field here are trying to fill. The first niche will be easily filled by the local teachers as they are well-equipped with what it necessarily takes to get these foreign students admitted. The latter niche is left to be occupied by ESL teachers who are familiar with TOEFL and IELTS, GMAT if necessary. (And English Language or General Paper in GCE 'O' and 'A'!)"

However, most local students are automatic selections for university placements because of Singapore's afilliation (sp) with the so relationship with Cambridge. Foreign students have to take part in these tests which isn't really fair.

"I agree with Gouki that financially I (may) have a better prospect here, though this may not hold true at the moment as the job market is very gloomy in all fields of work as he rightly puts it in his latest post. Again, since I am not Singaporean and am not a graduate of that distinguished teachers training institution, and given the economic downturn and recent SARS scare, my prospect of securing a full-time ESL job here is even getting dimmer. Unless I am an MA holder from any second class uni in OZ, UK, USA, NZ, or CA, I will easily secure an English language lecturer post at the local polys which pays handsomely well (salary can range from SG $2,750-5,500/month commensurated with experience of course). For comparison, an assistant professor in my uni earns at least SG$6,000/month. An associate professor pockets in about 10,000 - 12,000/month. At present I am lucky enough to have a part-time job which pays SG $25/hour for a two-hour session at the local language center (i.e. equivalent to RMB 125/hour). I know a friend of the previous batch at my uni who is paid SG $2,500/month for teaching 20 hrs a week and doing some 20-hr-admin work in a private language school. Another friend told me about a Caucasian expat with an MA degree who is paid 2500 putting in 20 hrs a week without the admin work attached! "

All that sounds great, which brings the question as to why do you want to work in China? Pay is even less, experience may get you a better job when you are starting off but what if you've already experienced enough? I understand the situation is Singapore is not great, can you speak other languages? I suggest you try to utilise your teaching methods for them if you know any. If you go to UK or the US, they could well be looking for English speakers who can teach Malay, Hindu, CHinese etc etc.

"Having said all these, I know I should hang on for a while till the circumstances here get better. But there is more than 'better prospect here' reason that I look forward to China, which I cannot disclose here apart from my love for travelling. "

Tell me, I would love to know what your other reasons for going to China. IT is a great place to live in my opinion, the cultural experience is amazing and eventful. Being in China and living the way the Chinese do is living life to the fullest. If you are coming here, then come for the love of teaching.

"By the way, are you sure the national language of Singapore is Malay? As far as I'm concerned, their national anthem is written in Malay. Their medium of instruction at educational institutions is English, which is the reason why they oblige an applicant to the local uni to enclose their TOEFL or IELTS score as in my case almost two years ago. Malay is now the second language and so are Tamil and Urdu. "

Perhaps you can ask somebody else for this. I thought English was the national language, but it is still Malay. Singapore was part of Malaysia and I guess part of its background was carried over.

"As Gouki puts it: There is a reason why schools would rather employ foreigners at 4000-5000 yen than natives at 1000-1500 yen."

WELL, DON'T BE DISCOURAGED. YOU ARE NOT A NATIVE CHINESE SO YOU SHOULDN'T BE PAID THAT LOW. YOU ARE AN EXPERIENCED TEACHER WHO CAN TEACH ENGLISH. THERE ARE PLENTY OF STUDENTS WHO NEED PEOPLE LIKE YOU SO THAT THEY CAN BROADEN THEIR OPPORTUNITIES (TO STUDY ABROAD). ITS JUST THAT YOU MAY NOT BE TREATED LIKE A SUPERSTAR AS COMPARED TO THE "TYPICAL" ENGLISH TEACHERS.

PS. MY APOLOGEES FOR THE UPPERCASE, MY KEYBOARD 'CAPS LOCK' REFUSES TO GO DOWN

[MW]

My FAO will not consider any overseas chinese, black, native English speaker from wales, scotland or ireland, or L2 English speakers from India, Manila etc.

Get the picture? Prejudice against accents or something a little more sinister maybe!

Even Chinese born and raised in the US and are native speakers are automatically rejected.

My FAO is highly respected in Beijing and a leader whose advice is sought after routinely by other FAO throughout China. His opinion is infectious.

[Dragon]

Dear Comrade,
It is safe to assume that of course you would have the best FAO. The governement would not give you a louse for an FAO. My god you have been here since 1978 as a facilitator. The FAO should ask you if the person in question for hire would make a good candidate. I am sure you can tell, if not you could teach them the facilitation method that has been in existence since 1978. Dear Comrade, we all love you and await your knowledge to float across this board. Your friend
Dragon