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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:06 am Post subject: |
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OP
Pass on this one.
There's too many unknowns and those staff may be from several different schools and the recruiter is looking for bids.
There is no actual job and you can't teach to an imaginary 40-student class. |
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joehaz
Joined: 19 Jan 2013
Posts: 7
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| I already bought a plane ticket and I am leaving in 13 days . So if this goes south what would you guys do? should I look for another job in the city I am going ? I have a friend who has been teaching in this city for a few years . I would really like to know more about this bait and switch thing that some recruiters do ? what should I look out for? please help thanks |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Line up other job interviews probably the best plan. |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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@joehaz - Cant help but comment on the slightly cavalier attitude dude. Book a ticket to fly to China to take a job that you have had no training for, or no experience in? If you really have no idea about how to approach a demo class ... how are you going to teach a class? The demo (whilst it comes with certain pressures) is the easy thing! Its a one hit gig with your best lesson. Actual teaching is a lot harder, and its an ongoing process (The lesson today might be great, but you have to prepare another one for tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day).
Sure, employers are silly to accept people without experience or qualifications, but it is a two-way street ... employees have some responsibility to ensure they have the tools for the job too. This kind of cavalier attitude is all too common unfortunately, and I actually find it quite an insult to the people who invest in training, invest in reading and studying the teaching of languages, and invest time in volunteer teaching programs to get some kind of experience.
Its a poor attitude and poor approach joe ... I really feel I have to say that.
BUT, by the same token ... Im not a total ****hole and now Ive scolded you, Ill offer some help too.
I want my demo lessons to be quite interactive, but the focus is on my students having most of the talk time. I also want to have a few different stages to my lesson, and a feedback session where I can offer corrections. Thats the 'theory' behind my demo lesson.
Stage 1 - Hangman game for three words - find someone who
Stage 2 - Dictate short statements to students, each one beginning with the three words from Hangman, 'find someone who'. Students write these down ... find someone who has been to Beijing. Find someone who doesnt like singing. Find someone who has never eaten pizza. etc etc etc. 6 - 8 sentences normally.
Stage 3 - Students stand up and do a mingle activity, moving around the room using only English to 'find someone who' for each of their sentences. I monitor at this stage and write down some mistakes made during students question forming.
Stage 4 - Class corrections - Ill write a few of the errors I heard on the board and ask the class to correct them.
Stage 5 - Feedback and individual correction. Ill ask single students, 'Ling Ling, did you find someone who has been to BeiJing?, who did you find? When did they go there?' etc etc. At that stage Ill offer individual feedback on mistakes.
Note ... this is a very brief lesson plan for my standard demo lesson. It needs careful instruction checking (you need to make sure students understand the instructions you have given them). You may need to teach them how to play Hangman, you may need to encourage them to ask follow up questions and communicate during stage 3. etc etc.
I hope it goes well for you, despite my reservations about your approach. If it goes badly, you are lucky in that you have a friend in-country already and that has to be your first port of call for help with job searching, the next demo lesson, and future lesson planning help and materials. |
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bestteacher2012
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Sounds like they are asking you to come over on a tourist visa. Is this correct? |
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mcloo7
Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Posts: 434
Location: Hangzhou
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| It seemed to me before that people thought it was ok to start out in China with no real teaching experience but in this thread people seem to discourage it. I have an online cert, and plan to read as much as possible before I get there, but have only tutoring experience for under one year and to mainly English speaking kids. I am the tree surgeon Chinadad referred to. You have to start somewhere right? |
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tangal
Joined: 11 Nov 2012
Posts: 47
Location: Da Nang Beach
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
Stage 1 - Hangman game for three words - find someone who
Never, under any circumstances, start a demo with hangman, unless you have no idea what you're doing! Find Someonw Who is a better way to start for elementrary level students and above. You can also do some icebreaking with simple Q&A or a quick vocabulary game where students have to think about making sentences rather than words (that's just too easy and then you're expecting students to do Present Perfect questions and responses. The beginning is also the best time to show your confidence as a public speaker and fascilitator (which is a big part of what "teacching" ESL is all about).
Stage 2 - Dictate short statements to students, each one beginning with the three words from Hangman, 'find someone who'. Students write these down ... find someone who has been to Beijing. Find someone who doesnt like singing. Find someone who has never eaten pizza. etc etc etc. 6 - 8 sentences normally.
In a demo class, there's no need to have students write anything down. You can demonstrate good boardwork by writing key vocabulary on the whiteboard. Students might not have pens and paper, and this wastes time. For an effective demo, just write whatever words you want students to use on the board, and bring copies of printed materials (like a copy of a Find Someone Who) to hand out to students. Dictation isn't necessary and is a waste of time. Students will get bored quickly by this sort of teaching style. Find Someone Who should take 5 minutes, maybe 10, if students are enjoying it and practicing their English with it (getting something from it).
Stage 3 - Students stand up and do a mingle activity, moving around the room using only English to 'find someone who' for each of their sentences. I monitor at this stage and write down some mistakes made during students question forming.
This is a very bad idea. Students don't need to "stand up" and do a mingle activity for a demo. Never plan on doing this for a demo. You might only have two or three students, or you might have students at different levels, or students who know each other already, or staff members who don't need to mingle but just need to see your teaching style. It's always better to play it safe, which means having them do pairwork and then doing something with the material as a whole class.
Stage 4 - Class corrections - Ill write a few of the errors I heard on the board and ask the class to correct them.
This is fine, but again, a bit impractical. Better to monitor while they're sitting and talking with a partner, then go over corrections as you move to the whole class activity, such as asking students to tell the class what they learned about their partner.
Stage 5 - Feedback and individual correction. Ill ask single students, 'Ling Ling, did you find someone who has been to BeiJing?, who did you find? When did they go there?' etc etc. At that stage Ill offer individual feedback on mistakes.
Fine again, but basically the same as Stage 4. However, you're also introducing a grammar point, the past tense, which takes planning and more boardwork. For example, when students are "mingling" and asking other students, "Have you been to Beijing?" or "Have you ever eaten a pizza?" that too is a grammar point. These points must be planned for so you can quickly explain or elicit answers from students before they start an activity. This is best done with boardwork.
Note ... this is a very brief lesson plan for my standard demo lesson. It needs careful instruction checking (you need to make sure students understand the instructions you have given them). You may need to teach them how to play Hangman, you may need to encourage them to ask follow up questions and communicate during stage 3. etc etc.
Actually, this demo sounds a bit novice. A good demo shouldn't need careful instruction, but clear, fun and easy-to-follow instructions that students can easily follow. There's no time or need to teach students in a demo class how to play hangman. And again, it shows a rookie approach. The follow-up questions are fine, but they need to be integrated into the demo as it occurs. Asking students to mingle with the purpose of finding and asking "someone who" and then expecting them to remain standing while asking follow-up questions is silly at best, and riskily unproductive at worst. Of course, it all depends on the level of the students, but if you make a "note" about your lesson plan and give weak instructions that don't explain or tell the teacher you're trying to help how to fascilitate the plan, then it's basically bad advice.
I hope it goes well for you, despite my reservations about your approach.
Having reservations about the intentions of others and "scolding" them without reason, and then offering questionable help is really not what this forum is supposed to be all about...Or is it? |
To the OP, take all advice and answers here with a grain of salt, because most of what is given here as advice isn't worth much, including mine! |
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tangal
Joined: 11 Nov 2012
Posts: 47
Location: Da Nang Beach
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mcloo7 wrote: |
| It seemed to me before that people thought it was ok to start out in China with no real teaching experience but in this thread people seem to discourage it. I have an online cert, and plan to read as much as possible before I get there, but have only tutoring experience for under one year and to mainly English speaking kids. I am the tree surgeon Chinadad referred to. You have to start somewhere right? |
Right as rain, buckaroo. You have to start someplace. Don't listen to anyone here, just go with your gut instinct and make choices along the way, good or bad at least they will be your choices. Make mistakes, and learn as you go, and most of all, just be yourself.
And whatever you do, try not to play hangman whenever possible! |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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tangal and I obviously disagree on the approach ... and thats fine. What Ive listed is my standard demo lesson which I know works well with my teaching scenarios - The feedback he/she has given on my initial post is quite useful though ... certainly for the OP and mcloo ... it shows that what Ive posted as being very teachable can be viewed by someone else as not useful. His / her critique of my post illustrates that teaching English is certainly a lot more than just walking into a classroom and simply speaking English.
Doing this job well takes some careful thought.
@tangal - I wont use this thread to debate what would work and why. Hopefully we can do that on the forum in other threads later. I do think its OK to say to someone on the forum, I dont agree with you or like your approach and offer your own solution. Thats what I think Ive tried to do. By the same token, you have done the same to me although you havent offered a solution or demo lesson ... feel free to do so. Your points to me are quite good in some areas, others Id like to discuss giving my rationale, but if its not useful, what would you suggest the OP should do?
Re - Hangman ... Yes its tired but it isnt played out. As an alternative to giving out worksheets to start a class, one simple game is better. Anyway ... the point I want to make is even with something as simple as hangman, you need to plan. Not every student, especially in China, will know how to play it. Having to teach them the game is very real and very valid, its useful for newbies to remember that whilst a game or activity may be popular in your culture ... your foreign students may not have seen it before, so relying on it too much can backfire. 
What I would be looking for in a demo lesson is: Graded speech. Confidence and control. Clear staging. Clear instruction setting. The confidence to correct. A balance of activities. A balance between TTT and STT.
Last edited by Denim-Maniac on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:30 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| tangal wrote: |
| To the OP, take all advice and answers here with a grain of salt, because most of what is given here as advice isn't worth much, including mine! |
I think you canceled your own advice out. |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It seemed to me before that people thought it was ok to start out in China with no real teaching experience |
Well, yeah, it's okay, but one of the reasons that most "teachers" are considered disposable is due to this mindset on both the part of teachers and school administrators. "Your face is your resume" is all too true. This is also the reason that many foreigners are jerked around and cheated by employers. Put up with it or they'll bring in the next batch. |
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it'snotmyfault
Joined: 14 May 2012
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| bestteacher2012 wrote: |
| Sounds like they are asking you to come over on a tourist visa. Is this correct? |
If they are, definitely have a plan B and enough money in the bank to survive for a while.
Or better still, stay where you are until you have a guaranteed legitimate job lined up. |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| johntpartee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It seemed to me before that people thought it was ok to start out in China with no real teaching experience |
Well, yeah, it's okay, but one of the reasons that most "teachers" are considered disposable is due to this mindset on both the part of teachers and school administrators. "Your face is your resume" is all too true. |
This current thread is interesting and touches on the ''no experience problem. http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=100462
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| My first week was shaky but I felt I was getting the hang of things. At the end of my probation period, I was unceremoniously fired due to complaints that I was boring and inexperienced. I was told that I worked hard and did everything right from a technical standpoint, but I'm not experienced enough and I lack a certain "spark" needed to be a teacher. |
This doesnt happen to everyone. And this is worst case scenario, but it can happen out there. If he isnt fired, the next scenario is that he loses his students who then ignore the lessons or complain endlessly. And walking towards those dreadful classes becomes so difficult to do its almost painful. You can learn on the job ... but that can be a very awkward and uncomfortable experience. If someone is planning a single year in China, spending most of that year uncomfortable in your job is not where you want to be IMO.
As far as starting with no experience ... Ill share my first paid job in China experience. It was with a vocational college on Hainan, with students aged 16 - 22. I arrived during Spring Festival and the place was empty for 4 days, then everyone came back and the FAO gave me the schedule on the same weekend everyone returned. I had my first class the next afternoon. There was no mentoring, no group lesson planning, no set syllabus to follow and I didnt get to meet the students or observe a class first. It was a case of 'Just speak English to them'.
Starting as a newbie in China is often sink or swim ... especially if you stay away from training schools! There is a far higher chance of a weeks 'training' and some kind of mentoring within training centres EF, Shane etc etc. |
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mcloo7
Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Posts: 434
Location: Hangzhou
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| If it doesn't work out with your first job is it usually possible to find another job, or do people sometimes have to leave the country? |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| There's no requirement that you leave the country, but you'd have to get a visa. If the place you're working gets you a Z visa and resident permit, they'll probably cancel the RP. You could get a tourist visa and stay. |
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