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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Save up some money, wait until you're free of other obligations, and plan accordingly for your training. I never did an online course but I probably wouldn't do one either if that was all I had time for. I'd buy a couple of good teaching books and read those instead. If you're going to do the training at least wait till you have time to do one of the decent in-class ones. |
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Qaaolchoura
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| maj0915 wrote: |
| Qaaolchoura wrote: |
If it's the choice between a $300 (or whatever) online course and a $3000 CELTA, then I agree that the online course might be worth doing before going to China. However there are other onsite courses that are cheaper, depending on where you are. Though I guess I'm thinking from a loss-aversive attitude. (I wouldn't want to waste the couple hundred bucks and hundred + hours if there's a chance I'll do it over anyways.)
Any rate, best of luck to you maj, whatever you do.
~Q |
Thanks! I live in a pretty isolated area in the U.S. and there's not really anything too close (New York City is probably the closest), but part of the reason I'm interested in teaching is to save some money, so I don't think I could afford the setback of a CELTA or Trinity. It's still something I'd be interested in doing eventually though, as I may want to travel to Beijing or even Seoul later. |
I also hail from a pretty isolated part of the Northeast (3.5 hours or so from NYC) however I took the SIT TESOL, which cost $1,300 at the time at a place less than 15 minutes by car from my home. And there were several other places that offered some kind of TESOL course within an hour, including the School for International Training itself. And while the SIT seems to be the best regarded American cert, there are certainly others.
And so far as I can tell, the only worthwhile employer that I've seen that says the CELTA and Trinity are the only acceptable courses is the British Council. (I suppose it makes sense that an employer funded by the British government favors the British certs.) While it would be nice to be eligible for BC jobs, even had I known about the situation at the time, I don't think I'd have paid twice as much for a CELTA to open up jobs for one employer, no matter how well-regarded, when I could do a course that's just as good at home.
If there's a college or university near where you live, you can try asking them about TESOL course near you; that's how I found mine.
Regards,
~Q |
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sistercream
Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 497
Location: Pearl River Delta
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Qaaolchoura wrote: |
I remember seeing ads for Wall Street China (I'll link you to this one, since it's on Dave's) that require "2 years of teaching experience (or 18 months for Guangzhou)."
I assumed that that meant that Guangzhou had lower legal requirements than other cities, since most Wall Street franchises make a point of fulfilling the letter of the legal hiring requirements, even where they're not always enforced. On the other hand, I'll note that the direct-hire ads the company has on TEFL.com have no such qualification, stating two years required point-blank.
~Q |
Thanks for the link - interesting on more than one level.
I'd have thought a group like Wall Street would have handled their own recruiting rather than asking an outfit like Gold Star to do it for them. That's not a group I've had anything to do with, but considering the reputation of recruiters generally, could anyone say if they are reliable about putting you in the position you actually applied for?
Maybe others working in the province could comment, but all I've heard is that while there are plenty of places in GZ willing to play off its proximity to HK and Macau to get staff working on 30/ 60 day F visas, legitimate employers need to have every i dotted and t crossed when submitting docs to the authorities ... unless things have changed recently, GD seems to be one of the provinces which doesn't even allow you to apply for a Z visa in Hong Kong or Macau unless the applicant is already legally resident there. |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=100462
This is an interesting thread about someone desperate to get to China and the holder of an online course certificate.
@ecubyrd - Yep, I do almost always turn up in threads discussing online courses, and I recommend CELTA or Trinity. It's not rocket science ... online courses are generally not recognised, not useful and are designed to make the course provider wealthy off the backs of the gullible. The course I mention arent the Holy Grail, but they are the BASIC, MINIMUM ENTRY LEVEL certificates that tend to be recognised around the world. They are also the basic minimum certificates for actually teaching useful skills on how to teach ... not a bad idea for a prospective teacher IMO.
The 'I cant afford a CELTA because I want to buy a new laptop, a smartphone and some suits' is a bit crazy really. Preparing to fly halfway around the world for a job someone may have no experience or qualifications in yet still choosing consumer goods over basic training? Its hard to justify that TBH dude.
If you dont like me mentioning the courses, please dont visit the newbie or general forums ... almost every poster who contributes there says pretty much the same as I do..... You'd hate it over in those threads 
Re - Wall Street. I know they are quite strict on the two-year thing. I applied for them a while ago and fell foul of their application process. I actually had in excess of two years experience, but it wasnt all post-degree. (I completed my BA while teaching abroad). I was instead invited to re-apply when the two year period was up. |
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ecubyrd
Joined: 09 May 2009
Posts: 172
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
@ecubyrd - Yep, I do almost always turn up in threads discussing online courses, and I recommend CELTA or Trinity. It's not rocket science ... online courses are generally not recognised, not useful and are designed to make the course provider wealthy off the backs of the gullible. I agree with most of that. Many places only require that simple online course however, and what a decently put together one will do is give one a complete brush-up on grammar skills and help to teach one that has never worked as a teacher how to lesson plan. They usually offer little more than that. The course I mention arent the Holy Grail, but they are the BASIC, MINIMUM ENTRY LEVEL certificates that tend to be recognised around the world. They are also the basic minimum certificates for actually teaching useful skills on how to teach ... not a bad idea for a prospective teacher IMO. Again, I agree with this mostly. It is a BASIC, MINIMUM qualification recognized more than others.
The 'I cant afford a CELTA because I want to buy a new laptop, a smartphone and some suits' is a bit crazy really. Preparing to fly halfway around the world for a job someone may have no experience or qualifications in yet still choosing consumer goods over basic training? Its hard to justify that TBH dude. I agree with this totally TBH, dude.
If you dont like me mentioning the courses, please dont visit the newbie or general forums ... almost every poster who contributes there says pretty much the same as I do..... You'd hate it over in those threads Thanks for the heads up. It's not my desire to guide newbies or sell something to the naive and will steer clear of there per your recommendation even though I have lots of experience teaching in Asia and am currently still doing so. How about you; teaching ESL in Asia these days?
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:16 am Post subject: |
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@ecubyrd - In the UK at the moment. Had a failed attempt at the Delta late last year, then had a hernia operation over Christmas. Good news is I have another visa application lodged at the Chinese embassy in London (posted it Monday) and will be back in China April 9th.
I dont know if you've done an online course of any sort ... I think you'd be surprised how little they contain to be honest. I did mine with i-i, certainly a well known provider, and they do very little in terms of brushing up on grammar skills. They actually sell a grammar skills bolt-on so don't introduce grammar at all on their basic online courses. Certainly nothing past 'this is a verb, this is a noun'. I only did my courses because my employer told me I needed it ... then when I started work I discovered my housemate and colleague was not only without a degree, he was without a TEFL cert too! I think generally, people who accept online courses accept anyone really. The course is rarely the deal-breaker / maker. |
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maj0915
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 61
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=100462
This is an interesting thread about someone desperate to get to China and the holder of an online course certificate.
@ecubyrd - Yep, I do almost always turn up in threads discussing online courses, and I recommend CELTA or Trinity. It's not rocket science ... online courses are generally not recognised, not useful and are designed to make the course provider wealthy off the backs of the gullible. The course I mention arent the Holy Grail, but they are the BASIC, MINIMUM ENTRY LEVEL certificates that tend to be recognised around the world. They are also the basic minimum certificates for actually teaching useful skills on how to teach ... not a bad idea for a prospective teacher IMO.
The 'I cant afford a CELTA because I want to buy a new laptop, a smartphone and some suits' is a bit crazy really. Preparing to fly halfway around the world for a job someone may have no experience or qualifications in yet still choosing consumer goods over basic training? Its hard to justify that TBH dude.
If you dont like me mentioning the courses, please dont visit the newbie or general forums ... almost every poster who contributes there says pretty much the same as I do..... You'd hate it over in those threads
Re - Wall Street. I know they are quite strict on the two-year thing. I applied for them a while ago and fell foul of their application process. I actually had in excess of two years experience, but it wasnt all post-degree. (I completed my BA while teaching abroad). I was instead invited to re-apply when the two year period was up. |
Having studied English in school and teaching ESL currently, I'm pretty comfortable with my grammar and my teaching. I currently don't have a laptop of my own or a smartphone, two things which seem essential to living abroad, especially for the built-in translators, map applications, etc. I also assume that overseas I will be expected to own a few suits and more formal clothing which is not required at my current school. I'm not sure they're so much indulgences as requirements. Would you move abroad without those items? |
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Qaaolchoura
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| maj0915 wrote: |
Having studied English in school and teaching ESL currently, I'm pretty comfortable with my grammar and my teaching. I currently don't have a laptop of my own or a smartphone, two things which seem essential to living abroad, especially for the built-in translators, map applications, etc. I also assume that overseas I will be expected to own a few suits and more formal clothing which is not required at my current school. I'm not sure they're so much indulgences as requirements. Would you move abroad without those items? |
I'd imagine that for the kinds of jobs you'll get with an online cert, you won't need a suit. You'll probably be teaching children and your employer will provide the ape costume.
As for a smartphone, it's not a necessity. I made it in Korea without one, and though it's been nice to have in Turkey, it's not nearly as indispensable as I'd expected it to be; as with a "dumb" cellphone I still mostly use it as a clock. However China makes some "knock-off" electronics that are better than the originals, so I think it would make sense to wait until you get to China to get the phone, and possibly the computer. (Though I wouldn't recommend this in the country to the east, where prices for both are shockingly high, unless things have drastically changed since I was last there, electronics are startlingly cheap in China.)
~Q |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| Qaaolchoura wrote: |
I'd imagine that for the kinds of jobs you'll get with an online cert, you won't need a suit. You'll probably be teaching children and your employer will provide the ape costume.
As for a smartphone, it's not a necessity. I made it in Korea without one, and though it's been nice to have in Turkey, it's not nearly as indispensable as I'd expected it to be; as with a "dumb" cellphone I still mostly use it as a clock. However China makes some "knock-off" electronics that are better than the originals, so I think it would make sense to wait until you get to China to get the phone, and possibly the computer. (Though I wouldn't recommend this in the country to the east, where prices for both are shockingly high, unless things have drastically changed since I was last there, electronics are startlingly cheap in China.)~Q |
You can get a job anywhere except international schools and the top tier universities in China with only an online certificate. Very few employers would know or care about the difference.
I've never heard of any employer, including Disney, providing or requiring a uniform. My previous employer gave us all t shirts with the company logo, but I never wore mine as they were cotton and too hot. Which brings me to the point about suits. I think it would depend where you end up living. I'm in Guangdong, and even in the winter it would be too warm for a suit and tie here. In the summer I wear dress shorts and short sleeve shirts, but never, ever would I wear a tie. I do have two, but they've never left the wardrobe. There are a couple of threads here on what teachers wear, but the consensus seems to be as smart as you can be while taking the climate into account. Even the native Southern Chinese teachers on my campus wear sandals and short sleeve shirts in the summer. They don't wear shorts, but I couldn't function in long trousers in 30 to 40 degree heat and high humidity.
It must have been quite a while since you were here Qaaolchoura. I've been here since 2009 and electronics have never been cheap. Especially phones and computers. The prices are much higher than you would pay in the UK when you adjust for currency exchange and general cost of living. For example, a laptop I paid 350 UK pounds for in the UK in 2011 was retailing for 3500 RMB here, and my smartphone cost me 999 RMB, though the final cost with the SIM and deposit was 1250. The same phone retails with a PAYG SIM in the UK for 100 UK, or it did at the time, it's half that now.
I would buy a laptop in the west to avoid problems with fakes, but make sure you get an international warranty. I would also probably buy the phone in the west, though you can buy the phone here relatively safely. |
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Qaaolchoura
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| doogsville wrote: |
I've never heard of any employer, including Disney, providing or requiring a uniform. |
That was a joke; a reference to the dancing monkey act" and variations that so many posters reference on this an other East Asian forums.
| doogsville wrote: |
It must have been quite a while since you were here Qaaolchoura. I've been here since 2009 and electronics have never been cheap. Especially phones and computers. The prices are much higher than you would pay in the UK when you adjust for currency exchange and general cost of living. For example, a laptop I paid 350 UK pounds for in the UK in 2011 was retailing for 3500 RMB here, and my smartphone cost me 999 RMB, though the final cost with the SIM and deposit was 1250. The same phone retails with a PAYG SIM in the UK for 100 UK, or it did at the time, it's half that now.
I would buy a laptop in the west to avoid problems with fakes, but make sure you get an international warranty. I would also probably buy the phone in the west, though you can buy the phone here relatively safely. |
Interesting. Sounds like China is following Korea's lead then. The Galaxy Tab in Korea, with a phone plan, cost 3.5 times as much as the same thing cost unlocked in the US.
I was last in China proper in 2002, though I was in Hong Kong in 2011. Prices in HK seemed generally cheaper than in the US (maybe you could make a run for the border if they're more expensive in the mainland now) for small electronics in general stores though I didn't go into a dedicated electronics store to look at smartphones and whatnot.
In 2002 there was a lot of cheap, counterfeit stuff in shadier parts of town and though I didn't get any, my brother did and was reasonably happy. (I don't remember what exactly he got, but I I think it was a videogame console or something like that, so it might not be as finicky as an actual smartphone.) Then there was the article a few years ago about the "knockoff iPad" that was both cheaper and had more features (like USB support and multitouch, I believe) than the original had.
~Q |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| maj0915 wrote: |
Having studied English in school and teaching ESL currently, I'm pretty comfortable with my grammar and my teaching. I currently don't have a laptop of my own or a smartphone, two things which seem essential to living abroad, especially for the built-in translators, map applications, etc. I also assume that overseas I will be expected to own a few suits and more formal clothing which is not required at my current school. I'm not sure they're so much indulgences as requirements. Would you move abroad without those items? |
My BA was modular, that means its not a named degree, but most of the modules were English focused, and I earned a 'Diploma in English Language Studies' as part of my degree ... but that didn't teach me any 'grammar' in an EFL context, Id be amazed if it taught you any. Dont think that an English degree qualifies you to teach English. And although you havent given much in the way of details on your current teaching context, the fact you only started in last month, without any related qualifications, means you quite naturally aren't going to be the finished article ... not by a long shot.
I didnt mean my post as a flame ... but a general observation of a trend that you are also following. Its very very common to read that people cant afford to do a basic, entry-level training course. But really, flying half-way around the world to do a job you have never done / have minimal experience in, is a really big step. Challenging and risky too!
Having a basic qualification which teach skills and methodologies, introduces language awareness and how to teach grammar, and gives concise feedback from experienced teacher trainers is bound to make the transition to a new job easier. And yet people dont want to do it! Its kinda crazy really!
Are smart phones and computers as essential as qualifications and training for the job? They are nice to have for sure ... I bought my first smartphone recently (not really had any phone for pretty much the last 5 years) and its nice to have it but they are still luxury items really. Not everyone has them.
You want to buy suits, a laptop, a smartphone and may do an online course. I dont know what your budget is for that, but Id bet you could do a recognised basic training course for the same cost? My initial post was just a reaction to that common idea. For you its buying gadgets, for other people ... they dont do the course because they want money for travelling etc. Its a common (and unfortunate) trend I think |
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