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LettersAthruZ
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 466
Location: North Viet Nam
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 Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| I'm With Stupid wrote: |
| kurtz wrote: |
The reality is, you're leaving a clean, modern country like Australia with good schools, reasonable health care, an established welfare system and a high quality of life and you're going to a developing country, possibly to do a low-paid job that you have no idea how to do. If you're serious about teaching, I'd do a Dip.Ed so you can get a proper job in a proper school, not some crummy EFL "school", but a real International School that pays a wage that allows you a good lifestyle. I'd like to hear of how many Western people who have made a quality life for themselves in Vietnam teaching EFL; being able to support a wife, put their child through a good school, having money for retirement, living in a multi-room apartment or house and with the option of visiting the home country on a whim.
Most of the ultra-positive posters on here are to my knowledge, single. This affords them a reasonable lifestyle; travel, drinks in good bars and restaurants, but throw in a wife and child and things would change a lot. I've had the misfortune of working in some VN primary schools, diabolical is one word to describe them; imagine 50+ kids copying lines from the blackboard; welcome to the VN education system. |
Yeah, despite what I said above, there's absolutely no way I would raise a kid here. The proper international schools are prohibitively expensive on an ESL salary. To put it in some perspective, the cost of educating one kid from grade 1 at Saigon South International School is $17k a year rising to $21k depending on the age. You could probably raise a kid until school age on a decent ESL salary without too many issues, but beyond that, it really does make sense to bring them to a country with a decent education system unless you have an employer that's willing to pay school fees for you, which you won't as an ESL teacher. I know quite a few teachers with young kids, but I don't know any with school-aged kids. I highly suspect that the ones I do know will be going back to their home countries when their kids reach school age. |
Hafta totally go with Kurtz on this one -
For a single guy or girl, with the freedom and reduced teaching hours Viet Nam offers, it's almost like heaven in a lot of respects (bureaucratic nightmares, corruption and rampant theft aside)......
.....HOWEVER, I do know a few Tay guys who have actually attempted to raise children here - six months to one year in the local schools for their child/children and then they ran screaming with their families back to their Tay nation.
Expat Luke has it spot on - IF you can (eventually?) get a gig at an international school, and get her son in on reduced/free tuition, that would be my only reason to stay here (if I had a child or children), otherwise, I'd be on the next boat with my wife and her son back to Oz!
The international schools here are soooo artificially over-priced, it isn't even funny. From what several multi-national corporate managers who are friends of mine here tell me (who have their child/children enrolled in a couple different International Schools at their Company's expense), it costs the same as an American or European PRIVATE school.......yet the QUALITY of education received at the Vietnamese international schools MIGHT be on par with an American PUBLIC school, and is slightly lower than a European public school.......
.......honestly? I'd get 'em outta here. |
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Tanker
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
| I'd like to hear of how many Western people who have made a quality life for themselves in Vietnam teaching EFL; |
Answer: 0
I've met a couple of single guys who liked to drink a lot. In Saigon then, and now (to a lesser degree), they can still be drunk a lot on "cheap" beer (which is not so cheap anymore) and hold an EFL job by teaching at night. Cheap women and cheap booze was their "quality of life."
That was/is the quality of life they were/are talking about.
The women and booze are not cheap, and even being able to drink yourself silly in the Alley and Bui Vien will get old in a short period of time.
I'm not saying the OP is interested in this. He's not.
But that is the "quality of life," for people who say they are here for quality of life.
Another euphemism for getting drunk every day is "I like to hang out with friends in my free time."
You can rent a room, have a job, and borrow and loan small amounts of money to friends.
I'm not judging: I was one of these guys. No regrets. But there are consequences as the years go by.
Below quote is what a person cannot realistically do. (I know a few who have tried. They left.)
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being able to support a wife, put their child through a good school, having money for retirement, living in a multi-room apartment or house and with the option of visiting the home country on a whim.
blackboard; welcome to the VN education system. |
OP, you could try it out for year....if.....you want a break from your current lifestyle, job, situation at home and then make a decision.
Yes, long distance relationships often involve different situations.
Cheers. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| If you're a teacher at an international school you can often get your kids in for a reduced price or just the price of books. I've met a few foreigners here with school aged children. Most either have their children enrolled in the international school they teach at or home school. I've met 2 families who put their kids in the Vietnamese schools. |
Yeah, I know Saigon South will let you put 2 of your kids in for free. But that's for qualified grade school teachers, not ESL teachers with a 4 week certificate. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: Your mummy is a prostitute. |
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Maybe someone could pitch in here, but I would also worry about sending children of mixed blood/or step-children, into Vietnamese schools.
When I consider the general attitude of the parents to single parent mothers who re-marry a foreigner, I wonder how cruel the comments would be in the school playground? Vietnam is 50 years behind in education AND in many social spheres.
Working in within the field of education, as a teacher, is finicky enough and I reckon none more so than within ESL. You have to put up with pretentious (seemingly) well educated westerners telling you there is only one way to teach ESL. Unfortunately, these opinions are like azzholes; yes, you guessed it: everybody has one. Match that with the social, political and economical instability of any developing country, and it is a recipe for madness - then add a family.
In the end we all have to make do and make the best of what we have - For some of us that means raising our kids in Vietnam in local schools with mummy carrying the baby on the back of a moped. Daddy, is of course, an ESL 'professional'.
I'm sailing close to the wind here - peace out. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Tigerstyleone wrote: |
| Teaching English in Vietnam is fine if you're semi-retired. |
Not sure why this old chest-nut keeps coming up on this forum. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of 'semi-retired' teachers I know here. The number of teachers I know here who, like the vast majority of people in the world, work because they need to get paid and it is their only real source of income is a very different matter.
I agree to an extent that a position as an entry-level EFL teacher at, for example, VUS is not something I'd necessarily recommend someone to do, [unless they are happy with it], for the next ten years. However, after you get the experience, if you are still just doing an 'entry-level job' at an 'entry-level school', are not happy about it, are not saving enough or getting anywhere then I'd suggest you usually have only yourself to blame.
The British Council and RMIT offer extremely good conditions, comparable to what you find in most of our home countries [but in a country with a low cost of living], and chances for advancement. They are not small organizations either and jobs do come up. There are also plenty of opportunities for privates and IELTS examining and, over time, this can add up to a substantial nest egg if you have the work ethic. As has been mentioned, there are also international schools for certified teachers.
There have also been a lot of talk on this thread about the cost of education for children and, I agree, the cost of sending your children to international schools here, unless you are working at one, is exorbitant to the point of being, in my view, a complete rip-off! If I ever do have children, (which is looking pretty unlikely at this stage), to be honest, I'd probably go back to Australia. Having said that, I wonder what percentage of our compatriots in our home countries could afford to pay the equivalent of international school fees here either. I know my parents certainly wouldn't have been able to.
Last edited by 1st Sgt Welsh on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| My Aussie friend tells me that the rules in Oz really make it a huge gamble to bring a wife over, she can really hammer him financially. It should also be pretty clear that more often than not, these deals do not work out long term, esp when bringing her to the west. This relationship subject starts to get off the reservation here and eventually disappears, even though it is a big part of life here. The most important aspects of this cannot be discussed in necessary detail directly. Many experienced and dispassionate observers would say that based on the info you have posted, you would be making more than one major mistake to pursue this situation, at all. Other sites that relate to this kind of topic have lots of detail on why, which tends to be ignored by guys over and over, which is why most of them up with these terrible outcomes. |
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ajc19810
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Its great this forum is starting to deal with issues for long termers rather that just newbies......visa,work permits etc.
Mark in Saigon is right, Australian laws regarding divorce can hurt both parties financially. However, while I'm sure others have seen people being taken advantage of, in my time here I have not seen the great money-visa con.
All my friends in relationships in Vietnam and Australia are all happily married with children. Most of the men and women in these relationships are and were all professionals before meeting, most are of similar age and most did not meet on Bui Vien. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Tanker wrote: |
| kurtz wrote: |
| I'd like to hear of how many Western people who have made a quality life for themselves in Vietnam teaching EFL; |
Answer: 0
I've met a couple of single guys who liked to drink a lot. In Saigon then, and now (to a lesser degree), they can still be drunk a lot on "cheap" beer (which is not so cheap anymore) and hold an EFL job by teaching at night. Cheap women and cheap booze was their "quality of life."
That was/is the quality of life they were/are talking about.
The women and booze are not cheap, and even being able to drink yourself silly in the Alley and Bui Vien will get old in a short period of time.
I'm not saying the OP is interested in this. He's not.
But that is the "quality of life," for people who say they are here for quality of life.
Another euphemism for getting drunk every day is "I like to hang out with friends in my free time."
You can rent a room, have a job, and borrow and loan small amounts of money to friends.
I'm not judging: I was one of these guys. No regrets. But there are consequences as the years go by.
Below quote is what a person cannot realistically do. (I know a few who have tried. They left.)
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This is a broad brush to paint all ESL teachers as. Sure there's a fair amount of "teachers" here who use teaching to fund their extended vacations of drinking and chasing women. But those are generally the ones with no degree, no training in teaching, etc.
There's a lot of professional teachers in Vietnam. I've never taught in Saigon, just Hanoi and Danang, but I'd imagine if the only "teachers" you run in to are the partyers, then I'd say you're running with the wrong crowd.
It's pretty easy to build a career in Vietnam if you're actually qualified for the work you're pursuing. (Meaning you you stay long enough to move up in positions at your language school, or you can teach at an international school) |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
This is a broad brush to paint all ESL teachers as. Sure there's a fair amount of "teachers" here who use teaching to fund their extended vacations of drinking and chasing women. But those are generally the ones with no degree, no training in teaching, etc. |
Yeah, but, unfortunately, that's the brush a lot of people paint us with and not just in Vietnam. TEFLing is a job that is very hard to do, or at least very hard to do it well. However, a lot of people don't seem to know or think about that. What they do seem to know or think about is just how easy it is to get started in it. |
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Tanker
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
This is a broad brush to paint all ESL teachers as. |
ExpatLuke,
I did not mean to generalize or paint all EFL teachers as such.
This was my mistake. I should have clarified.
I agree that the number of EFL teachers financially setting themselves up for the better is: 0
To answer Kurtz's comment -- whether they are sober, hard working, credentialed or not.
As for the "drinking on Bui Vien and Alley" I was only referring to myself and the very few folks who did - that talk about "quality of life."
I stopped drinking a couple of years ago and rarely go into PNL area.
I am still in EFL.
It is a challenging job. Lots of things to deal with.
I support my colleagues and anyone in the field.
I was just responding to a statement made by Kurtz which I agreed with.
However, I was not clear enough in my focus.
Also, I do not agree with nor like the negative stereotypes that some have made about EFL teachers in the Southern region of Vietnam (that they are travelers, partiers, etc.). |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:07 am Post subject: |
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My statement was in fact meant to be an open question. I'd like to hear of expats who teach in an EFL context, NOT in an int.school, who have married and had children and are living a quality of life on par with what they would in the West. I know three married couples here, their apartments are cramped, down some crappy back-alley and look like some rental property that a 1st year uni student would turn their nose up at. Why leave your home country to live like that?
This discussion does NOT include single men who think being able to explore SE Asia and eat and drink in restaurants is a "quality" life. Go holiday in Europe and see how far your EFL money goes.
I always see the same names dropped here. Good old RMIT and British Council. How many of these kind of jobs are there in Vietnam? What do they pay? How much does a mill DOS or AC position pay? Enough to support a family, save for the future, holiday back home? You're stuck in Asia as that is what your wage is geared towards, living in SE Asia. What happens when you want out? You're here for good unless you have an MA TESOL so you can teach back home.
There's been enough discussion already from single men thinking they have it good. Let's talk about married EFL teachers living a fulfilling, quality life here and putting their child in a quality school with a Western standard education.
One might be able to survive OK if the wife is educated with a job and doesn't want kids, but what sort of life would you have with a wife and child to support on your EFL wage? It hurts to think about it. |
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deadlift
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:37 am Post subject: |
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RMIT pays $3500 after tax for their "educators" (the term given to their senior teachers). Going from "instructor" (the lower, $2500 after tax, position) to "educator" is very achievable. You can get hired at RMIT with the basic set of quals and experience (it may take some time and luck), and numerous teachers have been promoted to educator after putting in some work, but without having an MA or a DELTA.
So let's imagine a bloke is working as an educator at RMIT is married, and has a 1 year old.
* He's getting $3500 per month after tax.
* He gets full health insurance, and can purchase insurance for family members at a discount.
* Let's say he spends $600 on an apartment in Phu My Hung. Even with fairly indulgent living costs, he should be able to save a fair bit of what's left.
* If he's been at RMIT three years, his wife could be studying at RMIT (English, if needed, and then a degree) for free.
* A nanny/housekeeper could be had for a couple of hundred a month. A bit more for a Filipina who can speak English.
* He's encouraged to do action research and write up his ideas for journals and conferences. Numerous RMIT English teachers have been flown to Japan, Korea, India and Cambodia to present at ELT conferences. Quite the resume builder.
* If he wants to do an MA, a DELTA, or IDLTM, RMIT will chip in up to 50%. At the very least he will have a chance to do RMIT's Grad Cert in Tertiary Teaching, at no cost.
* He can make good use of the library, access to RMIT Melbourne online journal subscriptions, and discrete projects within the program to engage in serious professional development.
* From time to time jobs will come up in the academic programs, which he may be able to leverage other work or experience and get into. This is very common. Not to mention the positions in the various student services offices (Learning Skills, Careers).
* He is part of a large community of families. Playgroups, picnics, Sunday lunches, Christmas dinners...
Now, you're absolutely right that the international schools will kill all ability to save money. Which is why this guy will be making the most of what RMIT offers to build his resume and skill-set so that he can transition back to his home country when the rug-rat is of school age.
If he wants to stay, he could pay up to $20k on top-end international school fees, leaving him around $22k, or $1,800 a month. Not very luxurious, but liveable. That's not factoring in any private lessons with the Korean kids.
This is all real, not fantasy or rose-coloured glasses. There are numerous ESL teachers (male and female) living here, raising families and developing themselves professionally. It's not easy to get these kinds of positions, but that's kind of the point. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, one kid's doable on one of the better salaries in the city. A second kid is probably not an option though. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:46 am Post subject: One on every street corner |
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You know you have made it when you can earn 3500 US dollars.
The streets are paved with gold and there is an RMIT on every street corner.
You can make 3k in half the time. Hows about working 15 hours for the same money? RMIT? Ptt Ptt
There are guys out here making that kind of money with no degrees.
Why do posters on here keep harping on about how great it is out here? Can't they see? They are directly responsible for the shift in demographics in our own countries. If the locals don't want to live here, why do we?
And why we are on this subject. Where are all the English teacher millionaires? - yeah, but I'm published, that is... 245 people have read it. Oh, fame? Great, a famous English (ESL) teacher. That must be something to die for - That's why I signed up to teach in Haiphong for a year.
Instructor, educator, The Terminator. Before instructor comes, 'The factotum'. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| deadlift wrote: |
RMIT pays $3500 after tax for their "educators" (the term given to their senior teachers). Going from "instructor" (the lower, $2500 after tax, position) to "educator" is very achievable. You can get hired at RMIT with the basic set of quals and experience (it may take some time and luck), and numerous teachers have been promoted to educator after putting in some work, but without having an MA or a DELTA.
So let's imagine a bloke is working as an educator at RMIT is married, and has a 1 year old.
* He's getting $3500 per month after tax.
* He gets full health insurance, and can purchase insurance for family members at a discount.
* Let's say he spends $600 on an apartment in Phu My Hung. Even with fairly indulgent living costs, he should be able to save a fair bit of what's left.
* If he's been at RMIT three years, his wife could be studying at RMIT (English, if needed, and then a degree) for free.
* A nanny/housekeeper could be had for a couple of hundred a month. A bit more for a Filipina who can speak English.
* He's encouraged to do action research and write up his ideas for journals and conferences. Numerous RMIT English teachers have been flown to Japan, Korea, India and Cambodia to present at ELT conferences. Quite the resume builder.
* If he wants to do an MA, a DELTA, or IDLTM, RMIT will chip in up to 50%. At the very least he will have a chance to do RMIT's Grad Cert in Tertiary Teaching, at no cost.
* He can make good use of the library, access to RMIT Melbourne online journal subscriptions, and discrete projects within the program to engage in serious professional development.
* From time to time jobs will come up in the academic programs, which he may be able to leverage other work or experience and get into. This is very common. Not to mention the positions in the various student services offices (Learning Skills, Careers).
* He is part of a large community of families. Playgroups, picnics, Sunday lunches, Christmas dinners...
Now, you're absolutely right that the international schools will kill all ability to save money. Which is why this guy will be making the most of what RMIT offers to build his resume and skill-set so that he can transition back to his home country when the rug-rat is of school age.
If he wants to stay, he could pay up to $20k on top-end international school fees, leaving him around $22k, or $1,800 a month. Not very luxurious, but liveable. That's not factoring in any private lessons with the Korean kids.
This is all real, not fantasy or rose-coloured glasses. There are numerous ESL teachers (male and female) living here, raising families and developing themselves professionally. It's not easy to get these kinds of positions, but that's kind of the point. |
Thorough and interesting response, thank you.
Reading between the lines though, if one actually gets an elusive job at RMIT, which is a B grade university position, it's a means to an end with the goal of getting the hell out of Vietnam so you can educate your kid.
International schools are the way to go, leave the EFL teaching positions to single folk who are labouring under the misconception that they're on a good thing as they can travel SE Asia when they want to.
It's not my intention to be negative. I enjoy most aspects of life in Vietnam, but the stark reality for virtually all EFL teachers here is you're on struggle street if supporting a family. Single people with lowly goals like traveling and drinking cheap beer are in for a nasty shock down the road. Single people with long-term goals who are always upgrading their quals, who don't feel the need to blow all their money on travel and are good savers with a modest lifestyle might get somewhere in life. So which category are you in people? |
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