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Ever wonder just (about) when the Iliad was published?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Ever wonder just (about) when the Iliad was published? Reply with quote

" Genomes and language provide clues on the origin of Homer's classic.
Originally published: Feb 26 2013 - 4:30pm
By: Joel N. Shurkin, ISNS Contributor
(ISNS) -- Scientists who decode the genetic history of humans by tracking how genes mutate have applied the same technique to one of the Western world's most ancient and celebrated texts to uncover the date it was first written.

The text is Homer's "Iliad," and Homer -- if there was such a person -- probably wrote it in 762 B.C., give or take 50 years, the researchers found. The "Iliad" tells the story of the Trojan War -- if there was such a war -- with Greeks battling Trojans.

The researchers accept the received orthodoxy that a war happened and someone named Homer wrote about it, said Mark Pagel, an evolutionary theorist at the University of Reading in England. His collaborators include Eric Altschuler, a geneticist at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, in Newark, and Andreea S. Calude, a linguist also at Reading and the Sante Fe Institute in New Mexico. They worked from the standard text of the epic poem.

The date they came up with fits the time most scholars think the "Iliad" was compiled, so the paper, published in the journal Bioessays, won't have classicists in a snit. The study mostly affirms what they have been saying, that it was written around the eighth century B.C.

That geneticists got into such a project should be no surprise, Pagel said.

"Languages behave just extraordinarily like genes," Pagel said. "It is directly analogous. We tried to document the regularities in linguistic evolution and study Homer's vocabulary as a way of seeing if language evolves the way we think it does. If so, then we should be able to find a date for Homer."

It is unlikely there ever was one individual man named Homer who wrote the "Iliad." Brian Rose, professor of classical studies and curator of the Mediterranean section at the University of Pennsylvania Museum, said it is clear the "Iliad" is a compilation of oral tradition going back to the 13th century B.C.

"It's an amalgam of lots of stories that seemed focused on conflicts in one particular area of northwestern Turkey," Rose said.

The story of the "Iliad" is well known, full of characters like Helen of Troy, Achilles, Paris, Agamemnon and a slew of gods and goddesses behaving badly. It recounts how a gigantic fleet of Greek ships sailed across the "wine dark sea" to besiege Troy and regain a stolen wife. Its sequel is the "Odyssey."

Classicists and archeologists are fairly certain Troy existed and generally know where it is. In the 19th century, the German archeologist Heinrich Schliemann and the Englishman Frank Calvert excavated what is known as the Citadel of Troy and found evidence of a military conflict in the 12th century B.C., including arrows and 5 feet of burned debris around a buried fortress. Whether it was a war between Troy and a foreign element, or a civil war is unknown, Rose said.

The compilation we know as the "Iliad" was written centuries later, the date Pagel is proposing.

The scientists tracked the words in the "Iliad" the way they would track genes in a genome.

The researchers employed a linguistic tool called the Swadesh word list, put together in the 1940s and 1950s by American linguist Morris Swadesh. The list contains approximately 200 concepts that have words apparently in every language and every culture, Pagel said. These are usually words for body parts, colors, necessary relationships like "father" and "mother."

They looked for Swadesh words in the "Iliad" and found 173 of them. Then, they measured how they changed.

They took the language of the Hittites, a people that existed during the time the war may have been fought, and modern Greek, and traced the changes in the words from Hittite to Homeric to modern. It is precisely how they measure the genetic history of humans, going back and seeing how and when genes alter over time.

For example, they looked at cognates, words derived from ancestral words. There is "water" in English, "wasser" in German, "vatten" in Swedish, all cognates emanating from "wator" in proto-German. However, the Old English "hund" later became "hound" but eventually was replaced by "dog," not a cognate.

"I'm an evolutionary theorist," Pagel said. "I study language because it's such a remarkable culturally transmitted replicator. It replicates with a fidelity that's just astonishing."

By documenting the regularity of the linguistic mutations, Pagel and the others have given a timeline to the story of Helen and the men who died for her -- genetics meets the classics."

http://www.insidescience.org/content/geneticists-estimate-publication-date-iliad/946

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

Good article. Thanks for sharing this.

Just bought an e-reader gadgety thing. I made a point of putting The Iliad on it first.

Regards

S
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mmcmorrow



Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 143
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I downloaded that Iliad too, but it really messed up my computer. Turns out it was full of Trojans ...
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boom boom! Nice reversal there.

And they say you should never look a gift-horse in the mouth...
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Boom boom! Nice reversal there.

And they say you should never look a gift-horse in the mouth...


Your flogging a dead horse now! Very Happy
Cool
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried reading that Iliad but its all Greek to me!

Very Happy


Cool
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Cool Teacher,


And yet - D'oh - you ARE Homer. Very Happy

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

Even he nods...


Regards

Hic!roic Sasha
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
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Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
Dear Cool Teacher,


And yet - D'oh - you ARE Homer. Very Happy

Regards,
John


D'oh!


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. . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you design that? Very, very cool, Cool Teacher, even though there's something about it that sets my teeth on edge like nails on a blackboard. It must be my Archilles' heel.

(Okay, I don't think anyone's going to outdo Mcmorrow's Trojans, though I appreciated the gift-horse, Homer and it's all Greek to [me].)
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is a very cool face-palm portrait. But would it launch a thousand ships, eh?
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we have a winner! But I�m troubled by the sparse contributions. I fear a spartan existence may be the fate of this thread.
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homer's odd. Is he ill. He had great stories. Wink Razz

Cool
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

artemisia wrote:
Did you design that? Very, very cool, Cool Teacher, even though there's something about it that sets my teeth on edge like nails on a blackboard. It must be my Archilles' heel.

(Okay, I don't think anyone's going to outdo Mcmorrow's Trojans, though I appreciated the gift-horse, Homer and it's all Greek to [me].)


Ha ha! No. I found it on the Internet. Its a Classic! Razz

Cool
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to go away for a monumental sulk! You are all Hectoring me!!!!
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