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coledavis
Joined: 21 Jun 2003 Posts: 1838
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Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Look also at the Netherlands, which considered making English the language of instruction for all its universities.. |
This example demonstrates the fact that linguistic evolution is not always dictated by the decisions of an oppressor nation. Here, any decision would be based on purely economic grounds: lessons conducted in Dutch would have little attraction for much of the world, while English will lead to an advantage for the Netherlands, as they attract students who are increasingly deterred by the expense of British universities. |
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Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
Point is, languages don't die unless the cultures that create them do. |
Ireland. Language almost fully dead, though making a small comeback. However, culture never died.
Israel. Hebrew almost relegated to the same 'dead language' status as ancient Greek and Latin, but Jewish culture never died. Hebrew now returned to the land of the living. Possibly the only example of this in world history.
I do not really see how language and culture can be consider mutually dependent when there are examples, striking ones, which show this is not true. |
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johnslat

Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sasha,
I'd say the same could be claimed for many Native American languages. But of course, although the "culture" has "survived," it's altered and been affected in so many ways.
Regards,
John |
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Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Johnslat
That is possibly the case. I do not really know enough about native Americans. How much guilt is felt over there about their decimation, though?
Best regards
Sasha |
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coledavis
Joined: 21 Jun 2003 Posts: 1838
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johnslat

Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sasha,
Hard to say, but my impression is that only we "bleeding-heart" libs may feel guilt. I taught on the Navajo rez for a year (Shiprock, NM) and the poverty, hopelessness, alcoholism, and terrible waste of potential are heartbreaking.
Regards,
John |
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coledavis
Joined: 21 Jun 2003 Posts: 1838
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johnslat

Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Dear coledavis,
Nope - she's Cowlitz, not Navajo. Great song, though Here's her latest
http://www.deboraiyall.com/home.html
Regards,
John |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 1082 Location: China
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| LongShiKong wrote: |
Point is, languages don't die unless the cultures that create them do. |
Ireland. Language almost fully dead, though making a small comeback. However, culture never died. |
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Depends on what we consider culture. You're right, Gaelic and other near dead languages are making a small comeback, but Sasha, with all due respect, wouldn't you agree that the precipitating factor is not a linguistic but a cultural one--the search for identity, exploring one's cultural heritage... beyond green beer, shamrocks and leprechauns? In fact, hasn't Gaelic been on the decline since communal life in Ireland was threatened during the 19th century potato famine? I don't know much about this historical period-- but my guess is that economic and linguistic (forced) dependency on England at the time took their toll on both the culture and the language, considered by many even today as a 'peasants language'. Were England as vulnerable following the Norman invasion, wouldn't we all parlais francais?
Anyone else care to comment?
Last edited by LongShiKong on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Irish writers who wrote in Irish? Sure. Myles na Gopaleen, aka Brian Nolan. Even Yeats used to dabble in Irish, though not to the same effect as in English. P�draic � Conaire remains as popular as ever, though not a global name. Patrick Pearse, is probably more famous for his politics, but was also an accomplished Irish language poet. On a tangent, Beckett wrote in French - does he not count as an Irish writer?
However, I am still unsure of what connection you see between language and culture here. Are you suggesting that Irish and, say, Welsh culture is identical to the culture of England because of the now shared language of English? I think you'll find plenty of disagreement there. For the same reasons that North Americans or Australians probably wouldn't see themselves as English either... |
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Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hee hee! Edited your question out?  |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 1082 Location: China
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| I am still unsure of what connection you see between language and culture here. Are you suggesting that Irish and, say, Welsh culture is identical to the culture of England because of the now shared language of English? I think you'll find plenty of disagreement there. For the same reasons that North Americans or Australians probably wouldn't see themselves as English either... |
Yes, that was my point, but yes, you do have an argument there.
EDIT: Yes, I started realizing the validity of your point. |
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Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| OK. Let's hear the argument for the essential identity of culture in Scotland, Ireland, England, Wales, and also of other English-speaking countries. |
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Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
EDIT: Yes, I started realizing the validity of your point. |
That brave honesty elevates you in the eyes of myself and all others, hic!
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teacheratlarge
Joined: 17 Nov 2011 Posts: 192 Location: Japan
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Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In fact, hasn't Gaelic been on the decline since communal life in Ireland was threatened during the 19th century potato famine? I don't know much about this historical period-- but my guess is that economic and linguistic (forced) dependency on England at the time took their toll on both the culture and the language, considered by many even today as a 'peasants language'. Were England as vulnerable following the Norman invasion, wouldn't we all parlais francais?
Anyone else care to comment? |
Yes, history records show some languages becoming dominant and some being pushed into decline. Economics and social trends have a lot to do with it. French is declining, though on a slower curve because of some African nations with higher birth rates (but unfortunately shorter life expectancies) using it.
I think it's part of linguistic evolution. I think it's similar as to why Esperanto and Globish are not taking off rapidly for that matter. |
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