Job Discussion Forums

[Funkman]

Also, regarding cash, I was thinking of bringing $500-1,000 in cash and having the rest in my account so I can just access with my key card. Any thoughts?

[1st Sgt Welsh]

[skarper]

If at all possible - get your old job back and forget Vietnam.

Honestly you are going to have a terrible time the first 6-12 months and unless you absolutely have to do it I suspect you will be back in Oz broke and red-faced in 3 months.

Better to have a 4 week holiday and enjoy yourself and go back to your job in Oz.

If you are hell-bent on Vietnam for whatever reason - and I have myself made wild life changing moves on more than one occasion that any sane person would have never contemplated so I can well understand why you might be - then DON'T try to keep up a 1000 AuD appartment - you will quite simply NEVER be able to maintain that kind of overhead on a teacher's income here. Many many months you will not make 1000USD a month and you will struggle at first to live on less than 1000USD a month. Even when you know the ropes I think 800USD is pretty frugal with no trips, purchases or other than basic food in local restaurants.

Plus - as mentioned above you cannot send money out of Vietnam without a salaried job - which you are unlikely to get even after 6-12 months of cash in hand work.

Vietnam could work out for you if you are willing to go 'all in' and plan on being here 3-5 years. It will take you that kind of time to cover your start up costs and build up experience and get qualified. I repeat - it you just want a break than take a holiday.

[Funkman]

Ok thanks guys, I hear you and understand where you are coming from - this is why I am giving serious thought to HOW I am going to do it. I may have to work out something with my apartment, and as discussed before, I am prepared to just come back home if it doesnt work out, so I have nothing to lose.

If it doesnt work, I will have just enjoyed a nice break in my favourite country, so what is there to worry about?

[mark_in_saigon]

I am afraid I already offended the gentleman early on, my apologies. I will just address the larger group of folks that browse but never post. One of the interesting things about this site is the posters tend to mostly be folks who have been here a while, who are usually higher level teachers, and who are relatively successful and happy over here. Even that being the case, it is hard to be happy with all the difficulties, but that is not what I am really trying to discuss right now. Instead, we should all understand the general landscape for anyone who first comes over, regardless of his qualifications, but also especially consider what it is like for the less qualified and those with minimal financial resources.

I was working on a study on the nature of the teacher base here, just completing it. A remarkable finding is the number of applicants per job, the number of higher quality choices, and also the quantity of applicants from second and third tier English speaking countries (or other countries) who are trying to escape their economic or societal difficulties. South Africa was notable in this regard. Also, the Philippines is very well represented. [No offense to anyone on this, I am using a list that is not of my own creation, but we all know that in VN some nationalities are most desired, some less, it is just a fact, it is not meant to offend anyone]. Details on this study I will attempt to share in a dedicated thread focusing on the topic specifically. However, I should summarize by saying that any English teaching job in the middle range of desirability has no problem receiving more interest and choices than the employer has time or ability to choose from. Of course, most employers are not skilled enough to know how to manage this anyway, but that is another subject.

Having done my time here, and having spent more time just enjoying life, working on my own research projects, my own writings, tutoring very high level students and teachers (often for free) than actually working, I have a unique insight. I have worked in plenty of "for pay" scenarios, and as I have the financial freedom to live without work, I do not brook a lot of foolishness from an employer. I find that it is rather unusual to find an employer that one is satisfied with for long (past the first week even), maybe 1 out of 4 employers seem worth sticking with for the newcomer, in terms of job satisfaction. I am talking about the average situation, you guys posting should realize you are at the top of the food chain, and you may be happy for quite a while with an employer, but also realize for most of the people coming here, the experience is vastly different. It takes quite a while to reach that state here, and even your skills and qualifications are not always the reasons you do.

Almost everywhere I go, I see foreign teachers just barely squeaking by. There is more than one profile for "success" here, and I do not know or list them all. I have a good friend from Australia who has worked here, is well qualified, a long term teacher in Oz, and knows the landscape well. He has returned home with the goal of reaching a net worth of about a quarter of a million so he will feel good about moving here permanently. I personally would not feel comfortable being here forever without a substantially higher net worth, and that does not even factor in the fact that he can get no govt pension from Oz and we can from the states (if living outside our home country).

At the other end of the spectrum, we have young people who come over more or less carefree, who have no well thought out plan, who may have no real qualifications, yet who may have so few opportunities that whatever they get here seems at least as good as what they can get back home (which may be almost nothing). I can also relate to that. Most of those folks do seem to have some magical way of surviving, they can get a return flight from their parents, maybe get some cash too if need be. They may live together bohemian style, with some interesting experiences gained. They often smoke and drink and party and seem to get by somehow, often from payday to payday. Yet compared to the wages the natives get, they must seem rich to the locals.

I have worked in the past with some very intelligent, mature, experienced and educated people, advising them on matters relating to my own special expertise (to the extent I have any). One very interesting conclusion I have made over the years is this: Whatever field we are discussing, we can have our "ten commandments", various rules and processes that experts understand and lay out to give the client his best chance at success, yet we almost always find that the person will take this list and treat it like something he can pick and choose from. "Oh, this looks great, except rule 8 I have to ignore because of my personal situation, I know I will make it anyway." This being the mindset of the customer/student/friend, it almost seems like we are doing a disservice to go on. If we know the person is going to ignore some of the most important concepts, what is the point?

In the past, I have stated that my best recommendation for coming here is to be able to live without the work, to be free to turn your back on any job, to be in a position where they need you more than you need them. I have not changed my position on that.

The more we have economic refugees from everywhere, the more the scene will degrade. Some schools cannot even recognize that a person is not a native speaker of English, as his white face is what they see and care about. The nature of this system does not work in favor of creating a better work environment for professional people, it is a morass, pot luck, mostly a disappointment, with a few big rewards (mostly not related to work) for those of us with the resources and skills to navigate this mess.

Best of luck to all of us, and see you out there!

[kona]

Here's a "lurker's" point of view:

This thread, to me, is like logging into a car mechanics forum and saying, "Don't tell me I can't fixed a cracked engine block with only duct tape and dental floss, just tell me HOW I can fix it"

[mark_in_saigon]

Ah but you can grasshopper. Whole eggs, or perhaps egg whites. Warm engine, drop eggs into your radiator, they flow thru the engine and magically seal your crack. I heard of this sacred knowledge long ago, and share it now for use on all leaky vessels.

If for some reason, this fails to hold, well, you still can consider using the eggs as an emergency food source.

[kona]

ah, the things Vietnam will teach you. undoubtedly, you will have a wonderful smell to deal with once you have to do a coolant flush.

[skarper]

I think we've done our duty of care by this guy. If he comes to Vietnam and makes good he can thumb his nose at us all.

If on the other hand he leaves poorer, bitterer (I know but I like this form!) and perhaps wiser he will not be able to say we didn't warn him...

TEFL in Vietnam being what it is - anything can happen. Many come here with an excellent plan and still fall on their a$$es. Others come on a wing and a prayer and strike gold. Such is life.

[mark_in_saigon]

Perhaps you have not BEEN to VN, or you have forgotten the smell. It will be as perfume, by comparison!

Honestly, it is amazing some of the stuff these guys CAN come up with. They have it in Cambodia esp, but anyone notice how they cool the tuk tuks? Just a standard moto pulling this contraption that can hold quite a few people, right? So, they have this big water source and then they just set it up to drip water on the engine head while underway. I cringed when I first saw that, thinking how the change in temperature could crack the head or something. But they have it figured out, as long as it is a gradual thing, you turn it on when you warm it up and don't dump too much on it all at once, it actually works. They all do it, and I have seen it here also. Approved by Honda? I think not. Works? The proof of the pudding...

It is all well and good to say what we think is the right process for anything. However, we probably have all made some moves that with hindsight looked pretty stupid. I have my share. As we get more and more economic refugees doing this, and I am sure we have lots of readers from various countries who do not post but are trying to pull this off (esp the Phils), we have to realize that a lot of these guys NEED to run this way, and are going to regardless of what people from the more affluent and traditional English teacher sources think of as a proper course of action.

I do think those folks would be best served by just posting questions that do not have any financial references. Or, maybe create a dedicated thread for that kind of topic/profile, which perhaps the OP was trying to do. I think his original post kind of set him up for the reaction though, as he did outline his finances a bit, along with his lack of credentials, and then asked for some general advice. It is hard for any of the western teachers to encourage someone who seems set up for failure. But I think most of us are always happy to discuss things like job search, locations, what to bring, expectations of the work itself, and many other topics, without the conversation devolving into animosity over whether or not the OP is making a big mistake, and then questions about the attitudes of the various respondents. The yearly wage for the average VN citizen is about $1,500 per year, and if one factors in how much the rich earn, who knows what the norm is? None of us can say what living standard someone else will accept. I do notice that the Filipinos rarely post here, as they are mostly used to a much lower standard of living than the westerners, and that is a discussion that we westerners really are not qualified to enter.

In all seriousness, I think it would be a good thing to have a dedicated topic for the teachers from less affluent countries/circumstances where they could compare notes on getting by. We have lots of them here already, and I bet our come and go guys could learn a lot from them. We would have to try to restrain ourselves from passing judgment, which really goes against the nature of the whole site, but I do see the need for it. This is not an uncommon situation, and lots of these folks are going to come anyway. OP, if you are still out there, I think the folks were just trying to tell you that from the perspective of a westerner who expects a halfway decent life, you were likely just to make your situation worse, but we failed to factor in your mindset of knowing you would make it regardless of any difficulty, and should have just advised you on the things we could help you with. Or we could just ignore the topic entirely.

[kurtz]

[kona]

Well, anything's possible. I would at least try to sub let your place, and definitely form a plan B. Don't think posters are trying to bash OP, but if you ask for an opinion, you're bound to get some judgement. And this looks like a recipe for losing a lot of money, but, OP, if you're OK with that than go for it: get a round trip ticket, look at your financial outlays, and calculate how much time it'll take you to get another job back home after you return, and just do it.

I'd recommend a CELTA, but even that might not put you above the mark for decent money, and if you can't let go of your apartment, then in all likelihood, you'll just have a very short teaching stint, and won't really need it.