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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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 Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:28 am Post subject: Re: These Kids Just Dont Get It! |
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Sorry you don't like my view of the situation you may be in.
| Sarcastro wrote: |
Or at least that's what I want to say.
But honestly, Im not one of those teachers that believes that its the kids' fault for not understanding what is being taught to them. I believe that it is the teacher's responsibility to teach in a way that is not only understandable but also that students can take and add what is given to them to their understanding; creating a form of wisdom.
I have been teaching in my Haining high school since the beginning of the year and I am doing ok with the first part considering I know nearly no Chinese. The second however is just not coming and Im at a loss as to what to do.
I understand that my kids have been conditioned to do not much more than regurgitate the answer and say only as much as what they think the teacher wants to hear. Very little is taught to them about making their own answers--its like nothing much was taught to them on the importance of "How?" and "Why?". This is hard for me because I am supposed to get these kids ready for studying in the US and from what I know, in most cases, we value much more how you got to the answer than the answer itself.
So how do I do this? I try to ask basic how questions of my students and I get blank stares or short, one word answers. Its frustrating, especially since part of what I teach needs to put two things together to say how they are related. They can tell me what each thing is and means but cant get further than that.
Any of you have good ideas about increasing comprehension and application in kids that dont have much of either, Id love to hear them! |
Like it or not, some of the ideas are in my previous post (if one reads it carefully). To raise the level of understanding is one thing; talent and skill to be able to cope with academic material is another. To put one�s fine teaching skill into use, there�s a degree of support needed. Support comes from the school management, academic material and local administrative staff (teaching inclusive). One of the accommodating elements is the placement testing into such programs as the original post suggests. Another essential feature is the timeframe in which students are expected to accomplish such courses.
If you want a �good idea�, here is one; take the placement testing into your program seriously. Address the issue of �why and how� in the courses� entry tests. Enrolments may go down, quality of the school up. However, I doubt many foreigners, unless the school is overseen by the western College Board, have any influence on who gets in or not.
For the time being, I�d stretch the courses and without a temper suggest to my superiors that more is to be done to prepare the current kids. But I don�t suppose this is an option here, since it�d indicate shortcomings of the school. So, send the damaged product and work on the new arrivals. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: |
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By warmups I do not mean some subset of the material to be taught.
I mean a fun activity that transitions the students to an English-centred environment. Emphasises their sense of being a learning group and bonds them with the teacher, so they accept your leadership.
BTW Flaming contributors may not be a good OP strategy. |
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Simon in Suzhou
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 404
Location: GZ
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
Warming up students to the topics may be a mind-opener. There are all kinds of brainstorming activities available which many may know about, but if the kids� general knowledge limits them you�ll bark up wrong trees. Putting varieties of levels of kids in groups may only accomplish one task which is that the best student in each group performs while others observe (and hopefully write some notes). Groups consisting of inadequate English level and limited awareness teenagers will most likely yield debates in their native tongue and on topics you may not want.
What should reduce our frustration in classrooms is the knowledge of a few points that are below;
School licensed by the western College Board or local powers
Academic program
Placement Testing
Coordination of foreign and local staff
Timeframe of the program
Regardless whether any of the above may become a factor during the preparation time, it would appear that compromising on �how and why handicapped students� is increasingly acceptable in States and perhaps some other western nations too. |
All these standards are good and nice, however this is completely out of the control of most teachers in China. It would be good criteria for choosing a position at the outset, but little help to the teacher in the classroom who took the job under the assurances that many of these things are in place...when they are not!
This is China. I would venture to say that a great majority (nearly ALL that I have run into) of exam prep classes for high school or university students to study abroad are nothing more than financial boondoggles for the school. Placement testing? That's hilarious! The only requirement for placement is usually the parents' willingness open their checkbook! |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
By warmups I do not mean some subset of the material to be taught.
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I think it has to be. Its a waste of time and a waste of a good learning potential if it isnt. The whole 'set schemata' idea is based on using a game or warmer to set the scene, and get students thinking about the topic at hand. Playing a game of hotseat with each word being chosen at random would be silly when you could play the same game, and chose words connected to the topic that follows. This would apply to pretty much every wamer IMHO.
In classes that are struggling ... you need to use all the tools in the toolbox, but you need to tailor them to help you as much as they can. The warmer or lead-in is key and is perhaps one of the most important parts of setting up a class IMO. (Just IMO of course ... I like the debate and difference of opinion!) |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon in Suzhou wrote: |
| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
Warming up students to the topics may be a mind-opener. There are all kinds of brainstorming activities available which many may know about, but if the kids� general knowledge limits them you�ll bark up wrong trees. Putting varieties of levels of kids in groups may only accomplish one task which is that the best student in each group performs while others observe (and hopefully write some notes). Groups consisting of inadequate English level and limited awareness teenagers will most likely yield debates in their native tongue and on topics you may not want.
What should reduce our frustration in classrooms is the knowledge of a few points that are below;
School licensed by the western College Board or local powers
Academic program
Placement Testing
Coordination of foreign and local staff
Timeframe of the program
Regardless whether any of the above may become a factor during the preparation time, it would appear that compromising on �how and why handicapped students� is increasingly acceptable in States and perhaps some other western nations too. |
All these standards are good and nice, however this is completely out of the control of most teachers in China. It would be good criteria for choosing a position at the outset, but little help to the teacher in the classroom who took the job under the assurances that many of these things are in place...when they are not!
This is China. I would venture to say that a great majority (nearly ALL that I have run into) of exam prep classes for high school or university students to study abroad are nothing more than financial boondoggles for the school. Placement testing? That's hilarious! The only requirement for placement is usually the parents' willingness open their checkbook! |
Alarming to see the way so many kids may get in. What I am wondering about is that whether this is the practice in accredited schools for abroad studies too. A worrying trend. Chinese kids are flocking to States unis. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
By warmups I do not mean some subset of the material to be taught.
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I think it has to be. Its a waste of time and a waste of a good learning potential if it isnt. The whole 'set schemata' idea is based on using a game or warmer to set the scene, and get students thinking about the topic at hand. Playing a game of hotseat with each word being chosen at random would be silly when you could play the same game, and chose words connected to the topic that follows. This would apply to pretty much every wamer IMHO.
In classes that are struggling ... you need to use all the tools in the toolbox, but you need to tailor them to help you as much as they can. The warmer or lead-in is key and is perhaps one of the most important parts of setting up a class IMO. (Just IMO of course ... I like the debate and difference of opinion!) |
My post outlined a few other benefits of the warmup. The relationship between these students and the OP seems in dire need of remediation. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon in Suzhou wrote: |
| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
Warming up students to the topics may be a mind-opener. There are all kinds of brainstorming activities available which many may know about, but if the kids� general knowledge limits them you�ll bark up wrong trees. Putting varieties of levels of kids in groups may only accomplish one task which is that the best student in each group performs while others observe (and hopefully write some notes). Groups consisting of inadequate English level and limited awareness teenagers will most likely yield debates in their native tongue and on topics you may not want.
What should reduce our frustration in classrooms is the knowledge of a few points that are below;
School licensed by the western College Board or local powers
Academic program
Placement Testing
Coordination of foreign and local staff
Timeframe of the program
Regardless whether any of the above may become a factor during the preparation time, it would appear that compromising on �how and why handicapped students� is increasingly acceptable in States and perhaps some other western nations too. |
All these standards are good and nice, however this is completely out of the control of most teachers in China. It would be good criteria for choosing a position at the outset, but little help to the teacher in the classroom who took the job under the assurances that many of these things are in place...when they are not!
This is China. I would venture to say that a great majority (nearly ALL that I have run into) of exam prep classes for high school or university students to study abroad are nothing more than financial boondoggles for the school. Placement testing? That's hilarious! The only requirement for placement is usually the parents' willingness open their checkbook! |
I'm sure the US can assist struggling Chinese students in even better ways than the Kiwis!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8662224/Chinese-cheats-rort-NZ-universities-with-fakes |
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Sarcastro
Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 89
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| BTW Flaming contributors may not be a good OP strategy. |
Sorry, you're right. Flaming gets us nowhere. Im sorry, WJS for all the snark. Your post seemed so naive and off the mark that it triggered my namesake. All those things are great and wonderful if we had them but in most places you might get one of these factors
School licensed by the western College Board or local powers
Im not sure if these even exist in China. If so, it wouldn't really matter as it would be a fairly large hassle to figure out the standards as I would have to get a colleague to sit down and explain to me what every bit of code means... just way too much of a pain, especially when they can't even bother themselves to speak English when Im with them.
Academic program
Simply put, there is none, at least not in the traditional sense where there are syllabi and mapped out educational plans. "We want the kids to do well on their TOEFL exams and have them go to US Universities." is the extent of their academic planning. For weeks I asked for syllabi or some kind of mapping for my lessons and all I got was nothing.
Coordination of foreign and local staff
My staff just talk to each other in Chinese and type in their WeiBo/QQ the entire time we are in the office. When I talk to my teaching head about problems, all he says is "Kids are lazy." And the last teachers' meeting? Happened when I was in class.
Timeframe of the program
They don't even bother to tell me that I have to bring money for an outing that we went on or how long it would be. The only thing I know about this program is that the semester ends sometime in mid June.
But these are things you would've known had you worked here. I still don't know where the hell that handicapped line came from. |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:32 am Post subject: |
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I've always wondered about the large number of TAs that assist foreign students at universities. In States, there's so much assistance available to Chinese undergrads or postgrads. The off campus support is one thing but the one on colleges premises of is quite concerning to say the least. |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
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I've always wondered about the large number of TAs that assist foreign students at universities. In States, there's so much assistance available to Chinese undergrads or postgrads. The off campus support is one thing but the one on colleges premises of is quite concerning to say the least. |
Hard to make sense of this post. That link you quoted above refers to an off campus, internet based essay writing service, which is something to be very concerned about. But they proliferate and are impossible to stop, but I believe universities and profs have ways to catch the cheats. On-campus student support, "the one on college premises" which you suggest is "quite concerning" is a legitimate service provided to all students, not just Chinese students, as part of regular Student Academic Support. I'd argue that foreign students need even more of this support because they're in a learning environment where they're using a language that is not their mother tongue. NZ Education could just tell the Chinese to "F off we don't want your students anymore" but that ain't gonna happen. |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Sorry, you're right. Flaming gets us nowhere. Im sorry, WJS for all the snark. Your post seemed so naive and off the mark that it triggered my namesake. All those things are great and wonderful if we had them but in most places you might get one of these factors |
No sweat. My judgement's probably clouded for not being here long enough and perhaps for the amount of pollution (in varieties of sectors).
| Quote: |
School licensed by the western College Board or local powers
Im not sure if these even exist in China. If so, it wouldn't really matter as it would be a fairly large hassle to figure out the standards as I would have to get a colleague to sit down and explain to me what every bit of code means... just way too much of a pain, especially when they can't even bother themselves to speak English when Im with them. |
I am pretty certain such schools operate in Guangzhou and some other larger cities. I thought it would matter if your colleagues were well supervised, trained and understanding of what is necessary to study in higher education abroad.
| Quote: |
Academic program
Simply put, there is none, at least not in the traditional sense where there are syllabi and mapped out educational plans. "We want the kids to do well on their TOEFL exams and have them go to US Universities." is the extent of their academic planning. For weeks I asked for syllabi or some kind of mapping for my lessons and all I got was nothing.
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This is an extreme to me but it may as well prove my naivity as what you have described probably is more practiced than I think. Abrupt plan changes, which undermine groundwork, seem to be more common than anywhere else that I have been before. I can imagine how your kids are practising their TOEFL testing skills with your local coworkers but putting little emphasis on whatever they need once they get abroad.
| Quote: |
Coordination of foreign and local staff
My staff just talk to each other in Chinese and type in their WeiBo/QQ the entire time we are in the office. When I talk to my teaching head about problems, all he says is "Kids are lazy." And the last teachers' meeting? Happened when I was in class. |
You may pretty well assume their communication isn't for the purpose to develop there professionally. I'd guess the whole scope there is to keep to place running there and to satisfy the kids' parents' requests for the expensive conditional offers from western unis.
| Quote: |
Timeframe of the program
They don't even bother to tell me that I have to bring money for an outing that we went on or how long it would be. The only thing I know about this program is that the semester ends sometime in mid June.
But these are things you would've known had you worked here. I still don't know where the hell that handicapped line came from. |
I appologize for the overkill on the "handicapped line". I may have used ill prepared or burdened (kids) instead. If the kids have shorter time than they need to get ready for the higher education, they'll be crippled in many ways abroad. The question really is what the requirement ought to be for such kids in a sense of timing and whether it's all feesible in the sector here on mainland. |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Javelin of Radiance wrote: |
| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
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I've always wondered about the large number of TAs that assist foreign students at universities. In States, there's so much assistance available to Chinese undergrads or postgrads. The off campus support is one thing but the one on colleges premises of is quite concerning to say the least. |
Hard to make sense of this post. That link you quoted above refers to an off campus, internet based essay writing service, which is something to be very concerned about. But they proliferate and are impossible to stop, but I believe universities and profs have ways to catch the cheats. On-campus student support, "the one on college premises" which you suggest is "quite concerning" is a legitimate service provided to all students, not just Chinese students, as part of regular Student Academic Support. I'd argue that foreign students need even more of this support because they're in a learning environment where they're using a language that is not their mother tongue. NZ Education could just tell the Chinese to "F off we don't want your students anymore" but that ain't gonna happen. |
There are many Chinese TAs in US unis and they not only charge but also recruit. The Chinese students' "mother tongue" is well heard everywhere in States on or off campus. The kids of the OP may well be aware of all this and that possibly is one of the reasons why they don't make an effort. |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sarcastro wrote: |
...words...
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Maybe this is just because I work public sector (and only public sector) in China but I don't recognise the truth is what you are saying about a lack of accrediting organisations and frameworks for institutional performance evaluation. Tertiary institutions in China are inspected and accredited by their provincial MoEs which work to a broad framework set by China's central MoE in Beijing.
I suggest that you read:
The Impact and Transformation of Education Policy in China
By Alexander Wiseman and Huang Tiedan before you throw about vast generalisations about policies and practices. This book has an excellent and very detailed account of how the public sector education system works at all levels and even contains a decent nod towards the private sector.
No syllabus or course planning? Well the course and program directory at the T3 university I work at is as thick as a phonebook and that is supported by departmental level plans and paperwork which go into lesson-by-lesson detail. There isn't the same stress on embedded skills, but that's a difference of ethos.
I had a meeting this morning about projected FT requirements and teaching loads amongst four departments for September 2014. That level of planning is concomittant with what happens in UK universities.
Maybe this is lacking in the private sector, but I have never known a Chinese university to be deficient in paperwork.
Certainly, it takes a bit of work and effort to actually integrate oneself into the team and there are going to be some people who will flat out avoid working with you. However, I have always had more problems working with the circus of random FTs that one finds in China rather than the people who have graduated from the local Normal university and, you know, are trained and qualified to be doing what they are doing. |
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DirtGuy
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:33 am Post subject: |
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GB,
With all due respect, I take exception to everything you have written here aside from your comment about many FTs being a circus to work with. If anything, what you say is completely and totally against both my own experience, the experiences of the other FTs at this uni, as well as the majority of posters on this site. I don't give a flying f*** about what some book says. Here, on the ground the reality is totally different.
Lots of paperwork? Taking a dump requires lots of paperwork but that doesn't mean it's useful for anything when you are done.
Syllabus? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. All of us her are constantly begging for expected student outcomes or even how much of the book we are supposed to finish in one semester. The standard response is "ask the students".
WE are supposed to integrate ourselves into the management hierarchy? WTF planet are you from? I welcome any and all interactions with the bosses as long as something productive comes out of them. What if there is no direction and no meetings at all? Should we pitch a tent in the hallway and demand they actually manage us? Your suggestions are welcome as you seem to have gotten something many, and probably most, of us haven't.
As for private schools, maybe it is because you have never worked for one that you fail to see the truth in this thread. Take on some side work at your basic language mill and report your findings back to us in 6 months. I'm sure all of us would love to hear what you discovered.
I'm going to to out on a limb and see that you do not speak for most of us teaching English in China. I am not saying what you wrote is not true. It is true for you and you are lucky that you can write what you did. Just don't tell others that they are wrong. Would you see so many threads like this if your situation was the predominant one in China?
BTW: If you are so proficient in your job and dealing with management, why don't you become a consultant and tell these people how to run their unis? The MOE certainly has its head up its a** and can't figure out how to get it out. If they could run a real education system, there wouldn't be so many people trying desperately to get out of this country to get an education abroad.
DirtGuy |
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litterascriptor
Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
By warmups I do not mean some subset of the material to be taught.
I mean a fun activity that transitions the students to an English-centred environment. Emphasises their sense of being a learning group and bonds them with the teacher, so they accept your leadership.
BTW Flaming contributors may not be a good OP strategy. |
Meaning a quick activity to get them ready for the larger activity of learning?
Maybe the OP thinks a warm up is something frivolousness? I know the Chinese teachers I work with, bless their hearts, got it into their heads to sing songs.. in Chinese.
Songs are good for a warm up, but as you said, needs something to go along with it other than finger snapping and foot tapping.
I find warm ups to be a good time to review.
This is an odd discussion overall, going in every which direction. |
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