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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| NilSatis82 wrote: |
| ecocks wrote: |
| Re: North American Speakers Only - I see ads often enough which specify country of citizenship. Sometimes it is due to the legal issues (EU citizen for instance) and other times it is the company's insistence on one type of English over another. There are TEFL companies around the world which only hire Canadians, Brits, etc. Others expand native speaker to include Indians, Ugandans, etc. |
Yes, of course but do you see adverts in Poland (or anywhere else in the EU for that matter) asking for North Americans only? I can't see what the advantage is here in Poland for doing that.
How would it be any different than asking for Canadians in China, Brits in Ukraine or Americans in Honduras?
| ecocks wrote: |
| Re: Business Backgrounds - In a similar fashion, certain backgrounds lend themselves to certain markets and business plans. In the Mid-East you see requests for technical, military, air traffic and engineering specializations where background and familiarity are pluses. Again, it depends on the business plan and market being sought. |
Yes, specialisms are often sought in certain contexts but in Poland it's quite rare. If the teaching is just general business English, then I don't see much benefit in asking for 5 years corporate experience. Just like with the previous issue, it would serve only to limit the pool of applicants with little or no tangible benefit.
Preferences are simply that, no more. If I had my choice(s) I would prefer to hire older teachers who bring more maturity and life experiences into the classroom, particularly in the area of business. Maybe you find them, maybe you don't.
You've got to remember that you're in Poland and in all honesty, it's not a place where native speakers are falling over themselves to come and find work. It tends to attract mostly inexperienced teachers who come here for a year or two and then move on to better things elsewhere. In other words, you can't afford to be too picky!
Whoa, I can afford to be very picky IF I choose to set up a firm here. If the people I want are not available in this market, then I have to figure out where they are and how to get them here. I have met a couple who are the type I would look for and believe they can be found. If not, I'll pass on the business because opening "just another language school" is not the goal.
| ecocks wrote: |
| Re: TEFL/CELTA - We don't agree on the TEFL v. CELTA issue so that's that. Nothing wrong with Trinity though so yes, it should say, "TEFL or CELTA/Trinity". For that matter it should also include teacher's with an ESL certification. I'll edit that change in, Thanks for pointing that out! |
Granted, I've seen a few adverts asking for a 'TEFL' (whatever one of those is) and when I do my first thought is that these employers obviously don't know much about the industry they're working in if they think that TEFL is an acronym for some kind of certificate or qualification. Sorry to be blunt but that's the harsh truth. Best just to leave that out imho. |
As I said before, we don't agree on this point. The harsh truth is that there are schools which offer TEFL certificates. Thousands of people work all over the globe with that qualification. There are solid TEFL programs which are not under the CELTA/Trinity programs. There are poor-quality CELTA programs and high-quality TEFL programs. I know a guy who just completed an online CELTA and, to put it mildly, the summary of activities is shocking. I taught a CELTA program once and that showed me how truly horrible the quality-control can be. At the same time, I know TEFL-certificated people who are professional and proficient in the classroom. An additional system is the ESL endorsement and certificates out of various North American teacher programs. It's easy to forget sometimes that there are tens of thousands of ESL teachers with vast experience in the American school system. As America continues their downward slide with teacher layoffs and retirements from shrinking enrollments as the baby boomers hit their 60's expect a few more teachers looking abroad.
SO, I take it that your point is that I am expecting too much. Would you say the compensation needs to increase to hire someone like this? |
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oipivo
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Granted, I've seen a few adverts asking for a 'TEFL' (whatever one of those is) and when I do my first thought is that these employers obviously don't know much about the industry they're working in if they think that TEFL is an acronym for some kind of certificate or qualification. Sorry to be blunt but that's the harsh truth. Best just to leave that out imho. |
Man, this argument is tired. If you honestly believe that a face to face 120 hour TEFL certification is somehow worse than its CELTA equivalent then you're uninformed and haven't kept up with the times. They are the exact same thing. Now, if the online certifications were being called into question I would agree, but face to face programs are generally all the same structure. |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| oipivo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Granted, I've seen a few adverts asking for a 'TEFL' (whatever one of those is) and when I do my first thought is that these employers obviously don't know much about the industry they're working in if they think that TEFL is an acronym for some kind of certificate or qualification. Sorry to be blunt but that's the harsh truth. Best just to leave that out imho. |
Man, this argument is tired. If you honestly believe that a face to face 120 hour TEFL certification is somehow worse than its CELTA equivalent then you're uninformed and haven't kept up with the times. They are the exact same thing. Now, if the online certifications were being called into question I would agree, but face to face programs are generally all the same structure. |
Some are, some aren't.
I do agree that CELTA and Trinity are useful in that they provide standardized methodologies and approaches BUT you can say the same thing about McDonalds while realizing you can still get a great hamburger even if the place doesn't have Golden Arches out front.
Yes, teachers can be likened to hamburgers, you heard it here first!
The obvious thing is that since they are not officially standardized there can be variations among the program structures and teachers. Yet many of these programs are run and directed by CELTA/Trinity grads and reflect the CELTA curriculum. The TEFL programs which send you an E-book, a website and tell you to read the book then do the questions without a student in sight are certainly less effective than those which are in classrooms with decent student-teacher ratios, offer contact with students in groups and one-on-one situations, focus on objectives and outcomes and have rigorous teacher and peer review of the lesson planning and delivery process. Swan is Swan, IPL is IPL and good teachers can teach other good teachers. |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| NilSatis82 wrote: |
| ecocks wrote: |
| Re: North American Speakers Only - I see ads often enough which specify country of citizenship. Sometimes it is due to the legal issues (EU citizen for instance) and other times it is the company's insistence on one type of English over another. There are TEFL companies around the world which only hire Canadians, Brits, etc. Others expand native speaker to include Indians, Ugandans, etc. |
Yes, of course but do you see adverts in Poland (or anywhere else in the EU for that matter) asking for North Americans only? I can't see what the advantage is here in Poland for doing that.
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really? none at all? it's the English accent most mimicked by English language learners, the accent they most often hear in movies, the accent they most often hear in music (often times people don't even know a band is from the U.K. until they hear them in an interview because they sing with neutral accents)......as well as the constant exposure the entire world has to American products and American culture....why wouldn't you see the advantage? How many Poles do you know, or Europeans in general, that speak with a good British/Irish accent? Most don't even make the attempt at the risk of sounding ridiculous....so they adopt the American accent.
Why not have an English teacher that uses a native accent closest to the students' already established accents?
You see NO advantages?
It's logical. |
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NilSatis82
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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With regards to the qualifications issue, I wasn't commenting upon the value of CELTA/Trinity compared to other TEFL qualifications out there, I was commenting upon the way the advert was written. To be clear, there is no such thing as a 'TEFL' when it comes to qualifications. There is a 'CELTA' a 'Trinity Cert. TESOL' but not a 'TEFL'. Sure, there are other TEFL certificates out there but they are not all the same, have different names and have varying standards. To lump them all together and call them a 'TEFL' is liable to cause confusion. If you're going to make exceptions to CELTA/Trinity I think you'd be wise to be more explicit about what those exceptions are.
Dynow, my point isn't about what accents are superior (neither imo). The point is that North Americans require a visa and Europeans don't. So why would you exclude the group that don't require a visa? It seems crazy to me. By the way, I'd include Polish teachers in that group of Europeans too, don't see why you need to be a native speaker to teach English.
That leads me onto another related point. What do certain people get out of bigging themselves up or bashing an entire population or group of teachers based on nationality alone? Apart from the boring British vs American thing, recently I've seen Poles, Arabs and native speakers in general all stereotyped or characterised in one way or another. You'd think TEFL teachers would be a bit more enlightened but doesn't always seem to be the case  |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| NilSatis82 wrote: |
With regards to the qualifications issue, I wasn't commenting upon the value of CELTA/Trinity compared to other TEFL qualifications out there, I was commenting upon the way the advert was written. To be clear, there is no such thing as a 'TEFL' when it comes to qualifications. There is a 'CELTA' a 'Trinity Cert. TESOL' but not a 'TEFL'. Sure, there are other TEFL certificates out there but they are not all the same, have different names and have varying standards. To lump them all together and call them a 'TEFL' is liable to cause confusion. If you're going to make exceptions to CELTA/Trinity I think you'd be wise to be more explicit about what those exceptions are.
Okay, my intent was that all three programs would exceed the 100 hours threshold AND have an observed teaching component but maybe it is unclear to some. So, how about rephrasing like this then?
"TEFL Certificate (100+ hours with an observed teaching component program) or CELTA/Trinity."
That more clear?
Dynow, my point isn't about what accents are superior (neither imo). The point is that North Americans require a visa and Europeans don't. So why would you exclude the group that don't require a visa? It seems crazy to me. By the way, I'd include Polish teachers in that group of Europeans too, don't see why you need to be a native speaker to teach English.
Students will pay for native speakers more readily than non-natives. There are also a number who specify they prefer American English. While it may be open to question as to whether there are enough to support a business presenting entirely North American teachers is a question that doesn't really have much to do with the basic contract terms.
That leads me onto another related point. What do certain people get out of bigging themselves up or bashing an entire population or group of teachers based on nationality alone? Apart from the boring British vs American thing, recently I've seen Poles, Arabs and native speakers in general all stereotyped or characterised in one way or another. You'd think TEFL teachers would be a bit more enlightened but doesn't always seem to be the case |
I have only met a couple of Polish EFL teachers but there are clear differences in most countries regarding the quality of speech by local teachers and native speakers. While some have spent enough time in the UK, Canada or the US to have dropped/reduced their original accent and acquired a few idioms, it's pretty clear to me that the accents, pronunciations and total language are more likely to be accurate from native speakers than those who have limited or no exposure to the idioms, usage conventions and cultural backgrounds of one country or another. |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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82 wrote:
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| So why would you exclude the group that don't require a visa? |
because this company prefers American natives to the rest. just like some schools prefer Brits. no different. |
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NilSatis82
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ecocks wrote: |
Okay, my intent was that all three programs would exceed the 100 hours threshold AND have an observed teaching component but maybe it is unclear to some. So, how about rephrasing like this then?
"TEFL Certificate (100+ hours with an observed teaching component program) or CELTA/Trinity."
That more clear?
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I think that is better. However, usually you see adverts written as something like 'CELTA/Trinity or equivalent' and then state in brackets or at the bottom of the advert exactly what 'equivalent' means, e.g. 100+ hours of input, 6 hours observed teaching of real students, externally accredited, etc.
Obviously you're right that Polish students often prefer native speakers and are willing to pay more for lessons with them. My own personal opinion is that there are far more important things than what accent you have and how many idioms you know as to whether you are a good teacher or not.
In general though, I don't have a problem with discriminating on language ability but discriminating on the basis of nationality is a different matter. Although I couldn't imagine anyone taking much notice in Poland, it's also against the law in the EU to specify that someone be from a specific country (unless it's for visa purposes). If doing everything by the book is one of your goals, then this is something you might want to think about.
http://eslspace.com/blogs/326/109/a-non-nativity-scene-the-sc
Dynow, you're still missing the point. Why do some schools prefer Brits? Because there is no visa hassle, that's why. I've never heard of a school in Poland prefer American teachers to British ones - it just wouldn't make sense economically. |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| NilSatis82 wrote: |
| ecocks wrote: |
Okay, my intent was that all three programs would exceed the 100 hours threshold AND have an observed teaching component but maybe it is unclear to some. So, how about rephrasing like this then?
"TEFL Certificate (100+ hours with an observed teaching component program) or CELTA/Trinity."
That more clear?
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I think that is better. However, usually you see adverts written as something like 'CELTA/Trinity or equivalent' and then state in brackets or at the bottom of the advert exactly what 'equivalent' means, e.g. 100+ hours of input, 6 hours observed teaching of real students, externally accredited, etc.
Obviously you're right that Polish students often prefer native speakers and are willing to pay more for lessons with them. My own personal opinion is that there are far more important things than what accent you have and how many idioms you know as to whether you are a good teacher or not.
In general though, I don't have a problem with discriminating on language ability but discriminating on the basis of nationality is a different matter. Although I couldn't imagine anyone taking much notice in Poland, it's also against the law in the EU to specify that someone be from a specific country (unless it's for visa purposes). If doing everything by the book is one of your goals, then this is something you might want to think about.
http://eslspace.com/blogs/326/109/a-non-nativity-scene-the-sc
Dynow, you're still missing the point. Why do some schools in Poland prefer Brits? Because there is no visa hassle, that's why. I've never heard of a school in Poland prefer American teachers to British ones - it just wouldn't make sense economically. |
That is an interesting link. I thank you for the information. So, it is apparently "allowed" to discriminate in hiring based upon visa status but not on language. Hmmmmm......
So, if I opened a Turkish restaurant, I could not insist on hiring Turkish cooks? Or wait-staff? |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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82 wrote:
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| 'The language requirement must be reasonable and necessary for the job in question and must not be used to exclude workers, so that advertisements requiring a particular language as a "mother tongue" are not acceptable.' |
"must not be used to exclude workers"? don't "job requirements" naturally exclude workers? not everyone is qualified for every job, and for obvious reasons.
also, what if my customers want native speakers and are willing to pay more for them? wouldn't that make requesting a native "reasonable and necessary?" regardless of whether or not it's better for them or not, it's the open market demanding something, and me, as a businessman, providing that product/service. nothing wrong with that.
if it's not illegal for my students to request "Nigel" over "Ryszard" at my language school because they want a native, it shouldn't be illegal to hire teachers based on whether or not they're native. why should i be forced to hire people technically "less qualified" for my clients?
as a matter of fact, we've all heard or maybe experienced personally classes that are taught half by a native, half by a polish teacher, and those requirements, that being you must be native for half and you must be Polish for half, are certainly in violation of this law. |
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NilSatis82
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ecocks wrote: |
| That is an interesting link. I thank you for the information. So, it is apparently "allowed" to discriminate in hiring based upon visa status but not on language. Hmmmmm...... |
I probably worded it clumsily but comparing visa status with nationality is not the same thing. The law that is mentioned in the article doesn't override immigration laws of individual states.
Non-EU citizens are not automatically given the right to work in the EU, so to employ a non-EU citizen you need to show that you cannot find an EU citizen who is qualified for a particular job. Therefore, in many EU countries non-EU citizens are excluded automatically. Obviously, countries like Poland are more flexible in this regard than Western European ones but the principle is the same - if you don't automatically have the right to work in a country, you can't really claim discrimination on the basis of your passport.
| ecocks wrote: |
| So, if I opened a Turkish restaurant, I could not insist on hiring Turkish cooks? Or wait-staff? |
I would imagine the answer would be no, you couldn't insist on them being Turkish if we assume you don't need to be Turkish to cook Turkish food well.
Dynow, I didn't write that article and have no idea how the law is interpreted or how many language schools are even aware of it, let alone take any notice of it. However, the fact that Polish language schools might be operating outside of the law can hardly have come as surprise to you.
The point that the article makes is that being a native speaker is not a qualification, never has been and never will be. The sooner many people in this industry realise this, the better. |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Fascinating.
Now I gotta check with a lawyer.
Bummer. |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:07 am Post subject: |
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[quote="NilSatis82"]
| ecocks wrote: |
So, if I opened a Turkish restaurant, I could not insist on
The point that the article makes is that being a native speaker is not a qualification, never has been and never will be. The sooner many people in this industry realise this, the better. |
i personally couldn't disagree more for reasons previously stated, among other reasons.
in addition to all this, some people not only want a native because of accent, syntax, slang, vocab, etc, but for the cultural experience. i don't care how perfect some Krzyszek may speak English, if he's 35 and spent his first 20 years of his life living in Poland, he's simply different. |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Speaking for myself, I would much prefer learning Russian from a Russian than an American who speaks Russian.
So, that does, in fact, make place of birth a qualification. It can be argued that how it ranks compared to other qualifications may be too high, or too low, but in the end the students/consumers (and to a lesser extent, the schools themselves) decide. Of course, teacher skills, personality, accent, experience, personal appearance (as it affects student learning) and ability to get along with others affects the decision as well.
My preference remains to hire North Americans, either Canadians or Americans, as native-speaker staff. By the way, my operation is named North American Academy.
If I do low/entry-level students I have nothing against hiring a Polish teacher for those who wish it but the native speakers will be US or Canadian natives unless it is clearly a violation of law somehow. |
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NilSatis82
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| A qualification is something that is earnt so it's hard to see how being a native speaker could be understood in any sense to be a qualification. |
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