Job Discussion Forums

[cuisineguy]

It seems that many agencies are very dodgy & best approach is direct with an institution (although not always easy/possible).

I was looking at jobs advertised by "Networkesl" & "CCES" - anybody heard good or bad about them?? Sorry if this has come up before .

By the way, I'm experienced ESL teacher in SE Asia, but new to China. Looking for post in Guangdong region.

[chinatimes]

If you use echinacities.com and thebeijinger.com you will see a lot of recruiters with job offers in China.

Even though the second has Beijing in it, you can still get offers for other cities. They post ads (fake?) and then offer you other cities.

Also, realize some recruiters want you to sign a contract with them. So you only work at schools through them. Decide if you really want to do this. For me, I don't mind signing a contract with a language school and then teaching at public schools (if it is legit), but I don't like the idea of being only tied to one recruiter. Beijing recruiters seem to be getting more and more demanding. I never experienced what I am now experiencing when I came here in 2010.

Common tactics they use are:

1. They ask you what kind of job you want (you can say "Adult business teaching" or "university teaching in Beijing"), then they reply not caring what you said, "Oh, we have a job like that in a different city. How would you like to teach kindergarten classes in Sichuan?"

2. After saying no to an offer and explaining why you don't want it, they call you up the next day excited about a new offer which is exactly what you want. Then, they say "How about that offer from yesterday/last week? Still interested?" (when in fact you never were interested )

3. "Come to our office for an interview". You get there and they want to video you doing a demo. If that is your thing, fine, but personally I don't want to spend my time going to offices and supplying recruiters with videos and not actually getting an interview with the school. Today I had a recruiter want me to come a second time to have a phone interview at their office. If it is a phone interview, why can't they call me? Something fishy about that one.

[GuestBob]

Straight up agents who recruit for organisations get paid around Y5000/hire. Agents can either be paid on completion of the Z Visa paperwork, on the arrival of the teacher or on the completion of the contract by the teacher - it is normal to split payment across these events and pretty everything is run on commission, with retainers being almost unheard of.

What this means is that the agent is most interested in getting you here as quickly as possible so they can receive all or part of their payment. The agent is never working for you, only the employer and your needs and interests are secondary to expediency.

This can be compounded by poor communication between agent and employer, further distorted by language differences and a lack of research by prospective teachers. This all adds to gether to make any offers from agents rather sketchy and uncertain at best.

If you have to use an agent, find out exactly what their relationship is to the employer and confirm any important details with the employer directly. If the agent refuses or demurs at putting you in touch with the employer once you have expressed serious interest in the position, this is because the agent doesn't have a contract or relationship with the employer and would lose their commission.

Agents do nothing other than take money from employers and use it to post adverts. They are not part of some super secret network and cannot find you jobs which pay more or are better than those you can find yourself.

The use of an agent for recruitment also suggests something about an employer. Where a large number of staff are required or there is a high annual turnover then using an agent is necessary. However, a university which hires one or two staff every one or two years and uses an agent to do so is simply being lazy. The FAO staff don't want to risk their personal responsibility in case they fail to hire someone and the whole process is so much easier if they don't have to interview people themselves.

I would avoid all temporary hire-you-out-contracts-through-agents, but then I want to have a proper job with co-workers and responsibility and suchlike.

[cuisineguy]

Thanks a lot guys for the info!!

Yes, some things to consider. It reminds a of some agencies & centres I knew in Hong Kong, but probably even worse. In HK, some agencies were good, but some bad. I've seen the trick you mentioned about doing promotion work for them (unpaid). I've also seen (at centres) where you do intro lessons for potential students to get them to pay & sign up - the students like you and manager tells them you are full-time staff to get them to sign up. But actually you were not regular teacher there & liable to switch to a good job elsewhere any moment. So , in the end the students & teachers suffer, but middle men benefit - well, at least for a while. A bit sad - that's life I suppose

[FreakingTea]

I have read elsewhere on this forum a few months ago that universities often use recruiters because they don't know how to find students themselves, and that this doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the school. For instance, I've heard good things about the university that hired me for the fall, and I found them through a recruiter. It was nice for me because I signed up before all the good schools were taken, and wasn't left with the desperate ones others had passed up. If you're using a recruiter and it's this time of year, though, it could be a red flag for the schools that are still looking.

If anyone can contradict or corroborate this, though, I would appreciate.

[GuestBob]

[Toast]

[FreakingTea]

Yeah, I don't really blame them for being lazy on that if it means that all of their applicants are pre-qualified, as opposed to weeding through application letters. Of course there's the "kickback" too. I don't really care, as it's less work for me and for the school. Just as long as they're not lazy about paying on time.

If I decide to work at another school in China after this one, though, I don't think I'll use a recruiter. Seems completely unnecessary for teachers in-country.

[GuestBob]

[FreakingTea]

[thechangling]

Cici at CCESL has been great for me. She always gets back to me promptly and goes out of her way to find me what i want.
Network ESL on the other hand are not very helpful. They don't do much follow up, if at all.
Horizon have been helpful and prompt.

[Simon in Suzhou]

There is some terminology that needs to be clarified here. People are using "agents" and "recruiters" interchangeably. These are NOT the same thing.

MOST jobs advertised online are through RECRUITERS. They simply post the ad, connect you with the employer, and take a one-time fee from the employer.

However there are a very small number of AGENTS in China and they are much more nefarious. They are usually (not always) setting up illegal jobs for unqualified people. AGENTS make you sign a contract with them, NOT the actual school you will be working for. As well, they will take a cut of your monthly pay for the entire length of your contract!

Recruiters are rather hit-and-miss. The general consensus is it is better to go for a direct hire, but that is not always possible and I have gotten a couple decent jobs using recruiters. However, I would avoid agents at all costs!

[FreakingTea]

The first time I tried to use a recruiter they set me up with an agent, and I had to back out when I figured out what was going on. That was Gold Star Recruiting. Horizon has been better because they let me talk to schools directly. The agent was very fishy and came up on several blacklists, so I'm glad I avoided that.