| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| NilSatis82 wrote: |
| A qualification is something that is earnt so it's hard to see how being a native speaker could be understood in any sense to be a qualification. |
When you think you know a definition you might want to check whether you are correct or reflecting a culture-specific standard.
From Webster's:
a : a quality or skill that fits a person (as for an office) <the applicant with the best qualifications>
b : a condition or standard that must be complied with (as for the attainment of a privilege) <a qualification for membership>
In fact, there are all kinds of qualifications based upon birth, genetics, environments, etc. which are not earned.
The ability to get along well with others is one example.
Age qualifications for military service are very common around the world.
It is difficult for a man to qualify for government programs offered to single mothers.
Being blind would tend to disqualify someone from the precision rifle team or being able to obtain a driver's or pilot's license.
The examples are numerous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
NilSatis82
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The article and I used the term 'qualification' in the generally understood sense as something that you have to learn for and be assessed at in order to achieve. If you choose to interpret it in another way, then that's your prerogative. It doesn't lessen the thrust of my argument though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| NilSatis82 wrote: |
| The article and I used the term 'qualification' in the generally understood sense as something that you have to learn for and be assessed at in order to achieve. If you choose to interpret it in another way, then that's your prerogative. It doesn't lessen the thrust of my argument though. |
You obviously aren't getting that it isn't "generally understood" by not only me, dynow and anyone else who disagrees with you, but the hundreds of millions of people who believe something different. It makes your "argument" irrelevant when those hundreds of millions don't agree with you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NilSatis82
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you ask people what a qualification is, most will tell you that it's something like a degree or a certificate that you get from school or university as a result of consciously learning something. Likewise, if you look in a corpus, you'll no doubt find that is also the most common usage associated with it. That's what I mean by 'generally understood'.
If you want me to put it another way though, my point is that automatically excluding non-native speakers from certain jobs is wrong. Good schools don't do this and recognise that there's more to being a good teacher than what passport you possess. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| NilSatis82 wrote: |
If you ask people what a qualification is, most will tell you that it's something like a degree or a certificate that you get from school or university as a result of consciously learning something. Likewise, if you look in a corpus, you'll no doubt find that is also the most common usage associated with it. That's what I mean by 'generally understood'.
If you want me to put it another way though, my point is that automatically excluding non-native speakers from certain jobs is wrong. Good schools don't do this and recognise that there's more to being a good teacher than what passport you possess. |
You get an A for persistence but an F for accuracy. It's simply not true. In fact, you clearly illustrate the potential value of a native speaker presenting their language over someone who has tried to pick it up afterward. And, by the way, you are dead wrong on the "no doubt" claim. In fact a review of the American Corpus shows the impact of Presidential "qualifications" and repeatedly relates to demonstrated performance in prior jobs, circumstances of birth and citizenship, age, etc., few of which are learned.
It's great that you are "in the British camp" but the whole world isn't on your page. You can use qualifications" to mean what YOU want it to and that's great (for YOU) but it doesn't automatically mean anything to the rest of the folks out there who live in a culture which uses the word.
Of course there is much more to being a good teacher, a good school and a good learning institution than simply hiring people with the proper passports. No one in this thread has said anything different. The fact remains that students often prefer native speakers over locals when they are available and when they can afford them. Language schools look at the desires of their customers and hire native speakers (often at a premium over locals) recognizing that offering native speakers to students as an option serves as a QUALIFIER to many of their customers.
Perhaps you need to review what preferences are and get out of the box a bit to understand how the "real world" operates?
Whenever someone produces a ranking which sorts "Good" Schools from all others maybe you can test your theory, |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NilSatis82
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We could argue all day over what 'qualification' means but unless either of us can be bothered to do a comprehensive lexical analysis of it and agree on what genres the examples are taken from and how these genres are represented, then I doubt we will ever agree. (Note that the first few examples in the COCA are from news shows, so no surprises that they talk about presidents).
I'm perfectly aware of what many students' preferences are (as I have already stated). I think if you examine their beliefs a little further though, you will find that what they really mean is that they want someone who has a high level of English, doesn't speak Polish in class and/or knows about British/American culture, etc. None of these attributes automatically preclude Polish teachers, just as being a native-speaker doesn't automatically make you a good teacher. We can agree on this, can't we?
Taking the argument to its logical conclusion, excluding non-native teachers from teaching positions is therefore ethically, legally (within the EU at least) and pedagogically wrong.
However, because of what students say, I will admit that schools are often in a difficult position with regards to choosing who to hire and I can understand why they might want to favour native speakers over Poles. I just happen to disagree (as does EU law). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
We're clearly not going to agree on the issue of pedology or ethics with regard to non-natives in this context.
Certainly, IF it is illegal to hire staff with specific backgrounds to deliver instruction specific to a nation or region, then it will simply be an expectation rather than a requirement. In theory you don't need to hire Jewish people to teach Hebrew but I'd guess the overwhelming majority of Hebrew teachers are Jewish. Regardless, it's on my list to discuss with a lawyer.
In the event that you cannot hire qualified employees due to legal restrictions, using contractors seems an obvious answer. That leaves me a bit bummed. This is not a PREFERENCE since it presents loyalty, commitment and competitive issues. My preference as an employer is to use......employees. The cons of contractors seem to outweigh the pros for the long-term. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oipivo
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Poland
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know if this helps, but I'm currently hiring my wife at my company.
All I had to do was post a general ad to the government unemployment website advertising a position in my company. I worded it as "native level English" and listed basic qualifications. After 30 days of the ad being up, you can hire whoever you like (for example- a native speaker). You just have to go to the unemployment office and tell them you couldn't find anyone that fit the position then take a piece of paper from them that says you tried to find someone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
So, IF I decide to go on this project it would be wise to get an ad up.
Thanks for constructive comment oipivo.
Re: Wife's Qualifications
Is your wife non-Polish?
Are you hiring her to teach as a native-speaker?
Did she do a credible TEFL program or maybe one of those CELTAs? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oipivo
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Poland
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes to all three questions. I asked at the immigration office on how to hire a native speaker and that's what they told me. I'm not sure what the Gdansk website is, but here's Poznan's form:
http://www.pup.poznan.pl/pracodawca |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Very good info, TY! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
