Job Discussion Forums

[LarssonCrew]

Just a quick question I'd like to throw out there, that has been bothering me for some time.

This coming from a guy with a law background who is used to 'time billing' whereby you charge the client for everything, even a 15 minute taxi ride to their office, because once you're in the taxi, you cannot be doing anything else.

Anyways, my wife's friend asked me to do a summer camp, and since I had some free time in the day, I said yes.

Now, here is the stumbling block, after the meeting agreeing to the hours and such[but no discussion of pay], they send me an email with the schedule which is:

Mon-Thursday

Mon is a 9am meet of the parents[yay!] 'Should I speak Chinese so they understand? 'No, just English.'
Then monday's classes are from 2:50pm-6pm

Tues-Thurs are 8:30-12

Now, here's the thing, they just gave me 4 topics, and said 'You need to plan everything yourself.'

So I asked if they had any of the following:

Books
Working internet
Printer[crucial for worksheets]
Interactive whiteboard[got used to using it]
Flashcards
ANY games or activities planned
A plan of what the children have previously learnt.

None, zippo.

So I'm basically having to create 16 hours of work from thin air without the use of hand outs and just a black board...and no internet.

Now, the main crutch, I said I wanted another days pay for spending 7-8 hours planning the 16 hours [fortunately they insist the kids watch a movie, so I can just copy to a usb for 3 hours of the class].

They are downright horrified I would ask.

But why should I not ask? They expect high standards[so they should] but without providing anything, they are essentially asking me to work to create my own, for a part time 4 day summer camp.

Another problem I have is that they want to pay me per hour of teaching[but you have a 15 minute break....unpaid...between classes!]. The problem is they decided to hold the summer camp 2 hours away from the city, and if I come back to the city in the afternoon I'd need to catch a bus at 5am to get there for the first class in the morning.

I therefore had to cancel a couple of 1 on 1's in the afternoon/evening on a few of the days. I told the woman I expected to be paid for the FULL DAY because hey, they're taking up my FULL DAY. Of course they'll probably expect me to interact with the kids in the afternoon whilst I'm there, and eat dinner/lunch with them, which is fine, IF I'm paid for the full day.

So my question.

Am I wrong in requesting full paid day [I rounded of 7 hours] for the 4 days of the camp
Am I wrong in asking for a days pay for the planning they asked of me [I got the email with 1 days notice]

[dean_a_jones]

No not at all, but that doesn't mean it will work.

You need to set some kind of framework in which you get what you feel is a fair amount for all time spent on the work itself. That could be in requesting an additional 'day' of pay, but I think most people here will just not understand paying you this extra day which to them is not work time, so why should they.

The most obvious way to me is by bumping up your hourly rate and just demanding more money, ensuring that some percentage of this is to cover the anticipated planning time. I wouldn't actually mention this aspect of it, just present it as your wage demand. If they won't give you what you feel is a fair amount for the work, then it is up to you to walk away saying the pay is too low considering the teaching time/planning time/travel time etc.

Unfortunately for this time, it sounds like you have already agreed and are likely to not be able to bargain hard or walk away given the nature of how this work was offered to you. In the future never say yes to anything until all the details (hours, rate, expectations etc.) are clear and you have worked out an overall price you think is fair which you can present and they can say yes or no to. I have noticed here that often means asking for more details a few times before the whole picture is clear, which can seem annoying. But it is better than agreeing too readily and getting stuck in the situation above.

[GuestBob]

That sounds pretty rough. You're nice asking for only one more day.

I would say that you either get what you want or the school forces the students to buy your favourite textbook. Without one of these, I would walk.

[doogsville]

You're right, you're asking to be paid for the work you do and the time you would lose that you could be using to earn in. If they don't pay, don't play. I'm sure they will be making more than enough money from the Summer camp to cover the cost. If they're not then their in the wrong business.

[spiral78]

Just chiming in off my territory to say that the exact same tactics were used by an IH in Toronto a couple of years ago. This isn't specific to China, or even to non-native speaking school owners.

If they think they can get away with exploitation, they'll all do it.

Stand your ground - and as dean_a says, in future never say yes until you get the details.

[mwaltman]

You clearly don't agree to the terms and conditions of the employer. Kindly refuse their offer and move on. Why should they change how they do business when they can find hundreds who will do it their way? This is not America or any other modern westernized country in terms of business practice. Do it their way or not at all. You won't convince them to give you more money for whatever.

[LarssonCrew]

Few replies:

waltman, suppose I could always ask for 5 mao more right?

To everyone else, I did a self introduction and actually 5 of the students already knew me from before and loved it. I did the normal thing of having my wife negotiate.

It's strange, if they agree say 250 an hour with the wife, that's fine, but they'll never directly do it with me, which I don't understand. THEY made the mistake of working out everything bar the price, and now they'v told the parents I'm the teacher, and several who know me have said 'he'll do a great job' they pretty much have no choice.

[tangal]

As a job discussion, this seems like a simple and classic case of inexperience meets implausibility and uncertainty to me.
Let's take it one fatuitous quote at a time:

[Bud Powell]

You're expected to hit the ground running. You're expected to be prepared to go right to work. In many cases, it really is an unreasonable expectation, but it really comes with the territory.

I have done private tutoring for many years, both in America and in China. I keep all of my hand-outs and lessons stored in folders on a memory drive so I can retrieve them when I need then and not go hunting for them. The extra hours spent getting ready for a new teaching experience results in an addition to my arsenal of teaching materials. That's how I reconcile myself to the irritation of creating new and unique materials. I could probably publish my own textbook for teaching both corporate work and private work.

If what the organization is expecting of you is way out of the ordinary and/or specific to their needs, you might be within reason to ask for more money to pay for materials and extra prep time. Outside of that, you could charge more per hour.

I agree that the comparison to the legal profession doesn't COMPLETELY apply, and that the reasons for what they do are not always fair compensation (though in your case, it would not be reasonable --- in the western mind--- to ask for more pay for prep time).

[chinatimes]

[LarssonCrew]

chinatimes...

') With a short term job, then you should get paid more for doing less time. With this said, if you got paid 100 or less for a monthly job, you should get 200-300 for an hourly arrangement. Sorry to say, you can't demand the same rates for office hours. You don't hire a plumber to fix your toilet and pay for their trip to the store to get the replacement parts. Same here. '

HAHAHA

Come on man, you ever been to a foreign country? They get paid for the time spent, if they need to go to the van to get a part, or the shop, they get paid for that time.

[chinatimes]

[LarssonCrew]

I called a plumber in China before, he didn't have the parts, he charged 40 per hour, do you think I had a stopwatch for him stopping for a drink, going down to his van to get the parts needed? Nope, just carried on, so infact, he wasn't always 'working', and was between getting the things needed and his place of work [my bathroom], but still got paid because he couldn't work for anyone else in the meantime.

[muffintop]

....so...you want to be a plumber?

Anyway...as has been said...the expectations seem quite low. How much prep work do you really think you need for a school that tells you to watch a movie? Go for broke and give them a written and oral assignment along with that movie and you can blow through a nice chunk of your weekly hours.

Add in some cheesy lesson on comparatives/superlatives... 2 hours. A game with pronunciation pairs...2 hours. Countable/uncountable...1 hour. Let's not forget the self introductions on the first day...1-2hours depending on class size. Some other game...2 hours. Hell, just getting them to tell you what they did last weekend should easily chew up an hour....then another hour at least for what they would prefer to be doing on summer vacation if their parents didn't hate them enough to send them to summer camp for English. Toss in another game and you're done dude.

The only prep work you should have is for the games unless you have a few you're familiar with. If I was a betting man, I'd bet you're taking this FAR too seriously. It's a dinky summer camp, you're not teaching at Tsinghua....

Though...you are free to ask them for anything you want. Better materials, more money, a handie after lunch...whatever your heart desires. They are also free to tell you to piss up a rope. Do what you want.

[wangdaning]