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muffintop
Joined: 07 Jan 2013 Posts: 803
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
| And all Chinese students absolutly know it, use it on a daily basis, and find it a source of great help with pronunciation issues. Its a really useful tool for EFL teachers to call upon too. |
I wish all Chinese students knew it. I think you are used to having better than average students in your classes....which is fantastic. However, we are not all that fortunate. Also, if you teach younger students they won't have any experience with the IPA chat.
off topic a bit but..
I had to teach a pronunciation class for a few semesters and besides the fact that my pronunciation didn't line up exactly....many students didn't really understand the symbols. To add to the confusion, different books may use different symbols as well...then there are the phones which complicate things even more. Add to that the differences between American and British English...
Anyway....I no longer teach that class but what I found effective was to focus on the vowel sounds and always do pronunciation pairs. Another teacher showed me a great game for this too...
On the board write the numbers 0-9. For each number write a word but try and have a pair. 1) Break 2)Brick 3)Sheep 4)Ship ....
First practice the words with them...then give them a telephone or qq number using the words. Break, Ship, Brick, Sheep = 1423
They can practice recognizing and saying the proper sounds using this game and it's far less dull than just repeating. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010 Posts: 4724 Location: China
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012 Posts: 1238
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Sorry NS - I posted quite early this morning, and your reference to middle school made me think of phonics. I always refer to the 'IPA', so then the alphabet used to transcribe sounds isnt confused with the word 'phonetics', which just means 'sounds of language'.
Every language learner with a dictionary (either paper or electronic) encounters IPA each day though ... dictionaries use the IPA to transcribe words so people can see how to say them.
@muffintop - I would guess that the only Chinese students who dont know it are complete beginners. The false beginners we have did previously learn it but have since forgotten it. I am perhaps lucky with the students I work with ... they are lower-intermediate and upwards, but even our lowest level students have a grounding in using the IPA. This was also true when I was in middle school and college.
You can actually use it to show the differences between British and American English if needs be. The accent differences dont provide a reason to not use IPA. A Chinese teacher once said in a staff meeting, 'who would want to learn Chinese from a teacher who didnt know pinyin?', bemoaning our lack of knowledge. I dont rely on it and use IPA for everything, but wow, it really can be useful ...
'beware of heard, a dreadful word. It looks like beard, but sounds like bird'. With such spelling inconsistencies you can see the use of IPA transcriptions for key / troublesome sounds. |
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Javelin of Radiance

Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 1187 Location: The West
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| IPA is kind of important because English spelling rules and pronunciation often don't jive with one another, and like Denim Maniac few foreigners I've met could pronounce a single word in IPA. I've let my knowledge of it slip and I can hardly remember most of it now. I should refresh myself because I get students coming up to me now and then with a word transcribed in IPA asking me how to pronounce it. Last time I remember replying with "Well, you say it first then I'll tell you how it sounds" because I couldn't read the entire word. Kind of shameful when you think of it. |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012 Posts: 1238
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:42 am Post subject: |
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I have an app on my phone which I use to review. If I think I have some troublesome words I will make a note beforehand. Today I had the word 'suite' referring to a hotel suite so it was useful to have /swi:t/ written underneath the word on the board.
We do a lot of work on sentence stress in my class and use the /ə/ sound a lot ... it helps the students when thinking about weak and linking sounds. It helps them to turn the words 'fish and chips' into a much more natural 'fi shen chips' /fiʃəntʃips/
No-one needs to be anal and transcribe everything using it, but it is super useful, students and colleagues can see you are being serious and making an effort in trying to learn it and use it. And the fact there are just 7 consonant sounds native speakers dont immediately recognise and just 20 vowel sounds its crazy that we cant learn it, or make an effort to. |
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kungfuman
Joined: 31 May 2012 Posts: 1749 Location: In My Own Private Idaho
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:37 am Post subject: |
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It's really hard to "prepare". WHY? because the topic of the subject you are teaching can have different meanings in different places.
the term "Oral English" is such an open topic and taught in so many different ways that until you arrive and meet the class and the administrators you will have little idea.
Some places give you a book - that you may or may not use - and some want you to go in and chat with the students.
Some are very formal and others informal.
So prepare by picking the brains of those that will govern you before you arrive. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013 Posts: 1736
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Has the OP even told us the level she'll be teaching?
It seems that everyone assumes that she'll be teaching middle school or lower. I've taught university and have never needed to use the IPA. |
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Baishou
Joined: 02 May 2013 Posts: 41 Location: Dongbei
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
| I've taught university and have never needed to use the IPA. |
Neither have I. I do what is called "modeling" and students love it: I repeat the word myself out loud and the students keep on repeating it after me until they finally get it. If they are having problems, I show them exactly how to make the sound in question with my mouth and tongue. They love doing this kind of thing and could probably keep it up for hours at a time, the louder the better.
I am a native English speaker. I can give them the real thing, live and in person. Don't see that we native ESL teachers even need to bother with that IPA stuff, which is unnecessarily complicated in my opinion. That's for Chinese English teachers who don't always know how to make the correct sounds in the first place and need some sort of crutch, I guess.
Did any of the native English speakers here learn to speak English with the aid of the IPA? That's what I thought. |
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Javelin of Radiance

Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 1187 Location: The West
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Baishou wrote: |
| Did any of the native English speakers here learn to speak English with the aid of the IPA? That's what I thought. |
First and second language acquisition are two very different things, and while you and I might not have needed IPA it can be very useful to ESL learners. I won't go so far as to say all of us need to be highly proficient at using it, but as ESL teachers we should at least be slightly familiar with it. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013 Posts: 1736
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Baishou wrote: |
| Bud Powell wrote: |
| I've taught university and have never needed to use the IPA. |
Neither have I. I do what is called "modeling" and students love it: I repeat the word myself out loud and the students keep on repeating it after me until they finally get it. If they are having problems, I show them exactly how to make the sound in question with my mouth and tongue. They love doing this kind of thing and could probably keep it up for hours at a time, the louder the better.
I am a native English speaker. I can give them the real thing, live and in person. Don't see that we native ESL teachers even need to bother with that IPA stuff, which is unnecessarily complicated in my opinion. That's for Chinese English teachers who don't always know how to make the correct sounds in the first place and need some sort of crutch, I guess.
Did any of the native English speakers here learn to speak English with the aid of the IPA? That's what I thought. |
The IPA is an excellent tool for the young learner, provided that he is taught by teachers who use ONE and ONLY ONE of the eleven English dialect IPA's. In post-secondary education, it's not really necessary because by the time the students reach that level their memories are good enough that they will remember the sound. However, if one is teaching completely new terminologies (such as Greek and Latin-based terms such as medical terminology) it can help to know the IPA and teach the sounds using IPA. Occasionally, I wished I had a better facility with it.
Actually, I remember being taught phonetics with many of the IPA alphabet characters when I was 1-3 grades. I attended American private schools. |
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MozartFloyd
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 Posts: 66 Location: Guangdong, China
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:45 am Post subject: |
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It seems we don't really know what level the OP will be teaching.
Having read through the comments, I agree that getting students to speak is huge. How you gonna do that? That's the question.
I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned games, which are especially important with primary students. If you're teaching primary students, overload your repertoire with lots of games, lots and lots of games to keep kids interested and active. Educational games are great, but sometimes you just need a fun game to keep kids interested. Little kids love games. Games can even work in middle school but they must reflect the maturity level of the students. If you don't know any games, start learning now!
Grammar schmammar in the end. I've never taught grammar directly, that's what Chinese teachers are for. Your main job is to get students to talk, correct their pronunciation, and keep them interested in class. Learn to have fun and don't be too boring. |
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Baishou
Joined: 02 May 2013 Posts: 41 Location: Dongbei
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| MozartFloyd wrote: |
| Having read through the comments, I agree that getting students to speak is huge. How you gonna do that? That's the question. |
One of my most popular classes is always "The Dating Game." Get a few students to prepare 9 or 10 interesting questions for a prospective partner of the opposite sex before class. For the actual game, have 3 or 4 students of the same sex stand up in front of the class. The questioner will sit in front of them, facing the class so that they cannot see the candidates, and proceed to fire away. After each round of questions, one or two per candidate, someone is eliminated ("I'm sorry, Candidate No. 2, but you can sit down"), and if you want to spice things up you need to have the questioner say why. The chosen candidate will get extra credit for the class, and the best questioners also get extra credit, based on a popular vote. If you, the teacher, are speaking more than 10 or 20 percent of the time, then you are doing something wrong, although personally I like to make a few jokes or brilliantly insightful observations at appropriate times, just to keep the energy up.
You'll learn a lot about your students during this game, such as who likes whom (observe eye contact or nervous glances at crucial moments), and who's not quite as virginally innocent as they originally seemed. I've even learned a few new "English," or maybe "Chinglish," terms myself. "Have you ever had a 'ONS'?" Fortunately, I didn't have to answer that one myself! |
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Harbin
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 161
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
Have to say though that like grammar it isn't the best use of a newbies time at this late stage in preparation. You will be on the plane in a couple of weeks. |
I respectfully disagree. Whether they admit it or not, Chinese students who are untrained in proper listening skills have difficulty understanding native speakers when they say combinations of words as simple as "used to."
What to see how big the problem is? Have your students write the following sentence while you speak to another FT: She'll leave at eight and switch on her TV as soon as she gets home. edit: Change she to he if you really want to be evil 
Last edited by Harbin on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Harbin
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 161
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| FreakingTea wrote: |
So does this mean that Chinese students are likely to understand IPA? Because if so, that could be very helpful for me if I need to contrast pronunciations. |
95+% of Chinese students know the IPA, but most can't make heads or tails of word stress, sentence stress, rhythm, or intonation until you teach them how to listen for it.
Assuming your students are native Mandarin speakers, here an off the top of my head list of the most common listening and pronunciations they'll face:
/z/ -> /s/ and vice versa. Say lice and lies and you'll understand why this is important.
/e/ -> /æ/ "I need to go to my bad room." Why is the room bad?
/t/ -> /d/ and vice versa
/ʒ/ -> /j/
/θ/ -> /s/ Is it really that important? Sink again.
/h/ -> /x/
/ɔ/ -> /aʊ/ or /ə/
FTs who are not from North America might add /əʊ/, /ɪə/ and /ʊə/ to the list. I'm from North America and can't hear or pronounce these diphthongs. |
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muffintop
Joined: 07 Jan 2013 Posts: 803
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Really?
The most widespread issues I have encountered is /ɪ/ -> /iː/ and /eɪ/ -> /ɛ/. There is also the /θ/ and /ð/ which you kind of mentioned but those can be forgiven somewhat since the sounds do not exist in putonghua so often they fall back on /s/ or /f/.
Also.../z/ -> /s/ can often be extremely difficult for native speakers to pick up on without context. Ice vs eyes. Try it.
/ʒ/ -> /j/ is close enough. Really.
/t/ -> /d/ never had much of a problem with this in and of itself. The common issue I see is that the students often like to pronounce it in the Chines way. /t/ become /tə/ and /d/ becomes /də/ (more or less). This issue exists for many consonant sounds actually.
Usually our job is not to make their pronunciation perfect (to what standard would we hold them accountable anyway?) but to remedy any issues which may greatly impact their ability to be understood. |
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