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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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 Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:19 am Post subject: What kind of people... |
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I have NEVER heard of anyone with a master's degree slag off someone straight off the bat like the one month TEFL certificate holders do to individuals the have had 7 years of education. Normally, these guys consider the larger picture, as this is what a good education gives.
How does a one month course give someone that right? At best, a one month course can INTRODUCE someone to the topic, nothing more.
Some TEFL holders put 'graduated from Cambridge University' on their C.V.s, laughable.
Studying, training and improvement is to be commended, but don't bullshit the guy with 7 years of education. You look like fools. |
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Ramen
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:03 am Post subject: |
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In my opinion, you really don't need anything to become a decent language mill teacher in Vietnam. Yeah, BA/S, MA/S, and Ph.D are nice to have chips on your shoulders, but at most viet language mills, they are nothing more than marketing tool as anything beyond BA/S degree would be an over qualification at most places.
I got my first teaching gig in Vietnam. I was minding my own business at a local watering hole shooting pool. A guy I was playing pool with asked me if I wanted to try teaching English and make some money. I took on his offer. I was thrown into a classroom with a book the next day. I was a bit nervous as I felt like someone had pushed me into the deep end of the swimming pool, and not knowing how to swim, I was to make it out of the pool alive. Somehow I made it out, but I saw some people couldn't make it out. Along the way, I made mistakes and learned from it. I learned various ways to make improvements by myself and, from watching and listening to others.
To be a good/effective EFL teacher, you really have to be an 'edutainer' which no higher education institutions can teach. You either have it or you don't.
Having said that, if you are a guy/gal with Masters/Doctorate and head stuck-up to your rear end with no sense of humor in the classroom, you ain't any better than a guy/gal just with TEFL cert. But if you have the contents and theories from higher education and posses the 'edutainer' quality, you'd be walking on water.
Last edited by Ramen on Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ramen wrote: |
In my opinion, you really don't need anything to become a decent language mill teacher in Vietnam. Yeah, BA/S, MA/S, and Ph.D are nice to have chips on your shoulders, but at most viet language mills, they are nothing more than marketing tool as anything beyond BA/S degree would be an over qualification at most places.
I got my first teaching gig in Vietnam. I was minding my own business at a local watering hole shooting pool. A guy I was playing pool with asked me if I wanted to try teaching English and make some money. I took on his offer. I was thrown into a classroom with a book the next day. I was a bit nervous as I felt like someone had pushed me into the deep end of the swimming pool, and not knowing how to swim, I was to make it out of the pool alive. Somehow I made it out, but I saw some people couldn't make it out. Along the way, I made mistakes and learned from it. I learned various ways to make improvements by myself and, from watching and listening to others.
To be a good/effective EFL teacher, you really have to be an 'edutainer' which no higher education institutions can teach. You either have it or you don't.
If you are a guy/gal with Masters/Doctorate and head stuck-up to your rear end with no sense of humor in the classroom, you ain't any better than a guy/gal just with TEFL cert. |
It always helps to have a crocodile behind you when learning to swim.
And, yes, today too much emphasis on credentials and none on ability and substance. It wasn't too long ago in the UK where you didn't need a degree to teach in primary schools, try that now. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| Ramen wrote: |
To be a good/effective EFL teacher, you really have to be an 'edutainer' which no higher education institutions can teach. You either have it or you don't.
If you are a guy/gal with Masters/Doctorate and head stuck-up to your rear end with no sense of humor in the classroom, you ain't any better than a guy/gal just with TEFL cert. |
That might be true to a degree, but it's not a really as black and white as you are painting. While I have met some GREAT teachers who don't have an education degree, they are usually the exception to the rule in my opinion.
An 'edutainer' is only a "good" teacher when it comes to children's classes. This is largely because the children don't really want to be in the classroom. They go because their parents make them. If you can help them to have a good time and enjoy their learning experience, they will probably learn a lot more.
But if you don't have a degree in education, you're probably making multiple mistakes when it comes to language teaching you're not even aware you're making. It's like this for every profession. If you have studies in a specific field for 4 - 6 years, you're going to know a lot more about it than Joe-shmo who took a crash course over the course of 4 weeks.
Bloom's taxonomy, schema theory, communicative language learning, audio lingual method, TPR, backward build-up, learner vs student mentality, motivation, learning types, ability +1, the importance and difference between goals and objectives, sequencing, phonetic alphabets, reflection, needs assessment, knowledge and reasoning of English grammar, are some things off the top of my head that the average certificate holder has no idea about. Some of them might sound basic enough, but there's complexity behind them that you wouldn't understand unless you studied them. They all help the teacher help meet students needs on a greater level. |
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Ramen
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Bloom's taxonomy, schema theory, communicative language learning, audio lingual method, TPR, backward build-up, learner vs student mentality, motivation, learning types, ability +1, the importance and difference between goals and objectives, sequencing, phonetic alphabets, reflection, needs assessment, knowledge and reasoning of English grammar, are some things off the top of my head that the average certificate holder has no idea about. Some of them might sound basic enough, but there's complexity behind them that you wouldn't understand unless you studied them. They all help the teacher help meet students needs on a greater level. |
Again, we are talking about average language mills. Why would you teach at language mills if you had education degree/cert.?
And if you think edutainment only applies to young learners, most likely, you'd be a dull teacher to adult learners. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| Ramen wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Bloom's taxonomy, schema theory, communicative language learning, audio lingual method, TPR, backward build-up, learner vs student mentality, motivation, learning types, ability +1, the importance and difference between goals and objectives, sequencing, phonetic alphabets, reflection, needs assessment, knowledge and reasoning of English grammar, are some things off the top of my head that the average certificate holder has no idea about. Some of them might sound basic enough, but there's complexity behind them that you wouldn't understand unless you studied them. They all help the teacher help meet students needs on a greater level. |
Again, we are talking about average language mills. Why would you teach at language mills if you had education degree/cert.?
And if you think edutainment only applies to young learners, most likely, you'd be a dull teacher to adult learners. |
Who is talking about language mills? I thought we were talking about teaching EFL.
And I'll counter your last statement with: If you think being an edutainer makes you a good teacher, your students probably wont be learning much. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Bloom's taxonomy, schema theory, communicative language learning, audio lingual method, TPR, backward build-up, learner vs student mentality, motivation, learning types, ability +1, the importance and difference between goals and objectives, sequencing, phonetic alphabets, reflection, needs assessment, knowledge and reasoning of English grammar, are some things off the top of my head that the average certificate holder has no idea about. Some of them might sound basic enough, but there's complexity behind them that you wouldn't understand unless you studied them. They all help the teacher help meet students needs on a greater level. |
If I am not mistaken, most of these concepts and methods, if not taught, are touched upon on a month's course in TEFL? But, again, yes, to actually go through these and study them, as the trainers themselves have done, takes years. |
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Ramen
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| Ramen wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Bloom's taxonomy, schema theory, communicative language learning, audio lingual method, TPR, backward build-up, learner vs student mentality, motivation, learning types, ability +1, the importance and difference between goals and objectives, sequencing, phonetic alphabets, reflection, needs assessment, knowledge and reasoning of English grammar, are some things off the top of my head that the average certificate holder has no idea about. Some of them might sound basic enough, but there's complexity behind them that you wouldn't understand unless you studied them. They all help the teacher help meet students needs on a greater level. |
Again, we are talking about average language mills. Why would you teach at language mills if you had education degree/cert.?
And if you think edutainment only applies to young learners, most likely, you'd be a dull teacher to adult learners. |
Who is talking about language mills? I thought we were talking about teaching EFL.
And I'll counter your last statement with: If you think being an edutainer makes you a good teacher, your students probably wont be learning much. |
If you have the professional degree (education, MA, Ph.d), why then would you compare yourself to someone only with TEFL cert? |
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deadlift
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| I have NEVER heard of anyone with a master's degree slag off someone straight off the bat like the one month TEFL certificate holders do to individuals the have had 7 years of education. Normally, these guys consider the larger picture, as this is what a good education gives. |
Can you point out who has slagged off masters degrees or equated a CELTA to one?
If you're referring to the point that I and others have made that an MA is not automatically a more relevant qualification for ESL teachers, what exactly is it that you're objecting to? |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Ramen wrote: |
If you have the professional degree (education, MA, Ph.d), why then would you compare yourself to someone only with TEFL cert? |
Because that's what the original post is talking about...  |
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Ramen
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| Ramen wrote: |
If you have the professional degree (education, MA, Ph.d), why then would you compare yourself to someone only with TEFL cert? |
Because that's what the original post is talking about... |
But you quoted me.
Anyway, congratulation on having an MA or XX degree! But I guess someone only with TEFL certification can get the same job and compete with you at the honored institution that you're teaching at.
I have nothing against anyone with or withou higher degree. As far as I'm concerned, anyone can teach English in Vietnam and other foreign countries if you have the heart and desire to teach, and enjoy doing it. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:00 am Post subject: Re: What kind of people... |
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| vabeckele wrote: |
| How does a one month course give someone that right? At best, a one month course can INTRODUCE someone to the topic, nothing more. |
That's true, but who has 7 years of education in TESOL? Even a masters only typically takes a year. I can't imagine many people with a PhD in it are actually bog standard language teachers, more research professors.
It's also worth pointing out that most people on here presumably don't just have the 4 week certificate. They also have at least a few years experience, during which they might have read widely about teaching theory. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:44 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Ramen"]
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
But you quoted me.
Anyway, congratulation on having an MA or XX degree! But I guess someone only with TEFL certification can get the same job and compete with you at the honored institution that you're teaching at.
I have nothing against anyone with or without higher degree. As far as I'm concerned, anyone can teach English in Vietnam and other foreign countries if you have the heart and desire to teach, and enjoy doing it. |
I quoted you because you replied to the OP without changing the subject. I felt what I said was relevant to the topic being discussed.
No need to get offended. I stated that I've met several teachers without a related degree that are great at their jobs. I just went on to disagree with your assessment that all it takes to be a good teacher is to be an edutainer. I don't think you'd find anyone who takes their job seriously, that agrees with you on that one.
And I actually don't think the school I'm currently working at would hire someone without extensive experience or related degrees. So the idea that someone with just a certificate could compete with me isn't really something I have ever thought about.
When was the last time you saw someone in the higher/better pay positions that didn't have a degree in TESOL or Education? I'm talking about the curriculum planners and teacher trainers. While I'm sure it does happen, it probably doesn't have desirable results.
Those are positions that are usually unattainable for people without the training. Whereas, with just 5 years of experience, someone who has studied the field will be qualified to fill them. I know, personally, without my class on course design I wouldn't have much of a clue as to how to build a meaningful language program. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:46 am Post subject: Re: What kind of people... |
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[quote="I'm With Stupid"]
| vabeckele wrote: |
That's true, but who has 7 years of education in TESOL? Even a masters only typically takes a year. |
My TESOL degree took 3 years. Of course it could be accelerated, but I've never heard of one only taking 1 year. If it only took 1 year, I'd imagine pretty much everyone would get their MA in TESOL before coming to teach. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| deadlift wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I have NEVER heard of anyone with a master's degree slag off someone straight off the bat like the one month TEFL certificate holders do to individuals the have had 7 years of education. Normally, these guys consider the larger picture, as this is what a good education gives. |
Can you point out who has slagged off masters degrees or equated a CELTA to one?
If you're referring to the point that I and others have made that an MA is not automatically a more relevant qualification for ESL teachers, what exactly is it that you're objecting to? |
Hi Deadlift,
I'm not taking a dig at you or your comments.
I am not going to go through all of the posts on here at Daves to reference them all. Really, there would be too many.
Like Ramen wrote, if you are just walking into the classroom to teach there isn't really that much to it and the only way to beat the jitters is to stand up in front of the class and teach. I have a friend who has no formal qualifications above (or below) the CELTA; he has always planned his lessons, marked and assessed his students regardless of circumstance. I respect this guy very much. I cannot say the same of many of the 'entitled ones'. |
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