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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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 Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Working on an F Visa |
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| CalMorris28 wrote: |
Hey everyone!
So I've been applying for a few jobs in China recently and most seem keen to get me out there as quickly as possible. This would mean going over on an F Visa and getting a Z Visa while I'm there.
However I have a few concerns:
1)As far as I'm aware working on an F Visa is illegal?
2)What are the risks if I were to do this even if it were just for a few months? What would be the outcome if I was to get caught?
3) How often do the authorities even check schools so to speak?
4) Am I more likely to be less at risk if I were in a smaller city/town, or is the risk as great everywhere?
5) Another is how many people are told this then never actually get the Z Visa? I know this would vary from school to school, just a small concern of mine.
Thanks in advanced for any help! |
YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY BUT...
Sometimes, prospective FTs are brought over on an F visa because they don't meet the criteria of the SBFEA/SAFEA to work as a teacher; therefore, the employer can't apply for a Z visa for the prospective hiree.
Sometimes, the problem is with the employer's status and he cannot obtain the Z visa for any foreigner. (Not every school/training or language school is allowed to hire foreigners).
Then when it comes down to the wire, the newly-arrived FT is told, "Don't worry about it. You don't need a Z visa. We can take care of it. It's not a problem."
But sometimes there IS a problem. Legally, that F visa can't allow you to draw a paycheck from a Chinese concern. Worse, you can't always stay in China continuously for a year on an F visa.
Sometimes the problem goes beyond just the acquisition of a Z visa. Sometimes, the school in question is a h3ll on earth and can't get new FTs from within the country, so it rushes fresh fish into the country on an F visa. Then the FT finds out that his F visa can't be changed to a Z visa. He is then stuck at that school at the school's mercy until he can find another school that can "fix" the visa problem or can live with the FT's visa problem.
ON THE OTHER HAND, it seems that everyone knows of someone who came to China on an F visa, had it magically converted to a Z visa in Hong Kong, and lived happily ever after.
My recommendation: find a school that can bring you in on a Z visa or find someone with a magic wand. Going to China to teach on an F visa is asking for problems.
Last edited by Bud Powell on Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zhejiang_Man
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Zhejiang
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| ON THE OTHER HAND, it seems that everyone knows of someone who came to China on a Z visa, had it magically converted to a Z visa in Hong Kong, and lived happily ever after. |
Assuming you meant, "... everyone knows of someone who came to China on a F visa ..."
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=103161&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
| Quote: |
On August 29, 2011 I flew to Hong Kong and got a one-day F visa via an agency. I decided to pay HKD200.00 extra and get a double entry visa. I arrived on campus at midday on August 30, and began teaching on September 1.
You can view the F visa here - http://i44.tinypic.com/vhwc5e.jpg
Over the following 3 weeks, I went to Hangzhou and did a medical exam and my school got a Foreign Experts Certificate for me.
In week 4 .... I asked the FAO whether the Public Security Bureau (the police) would convert my F visa to a Foreigners Residence Permit given that I now had an F.E.C.. Despite her confidence that they would not, I insisted that she at least ask.
Well, the PSB did convert my F visa to an F.R.P. which can been seen here - http://i39.tinypic.com/ev3kue.jpg You can see that the F.R.P. was issued on September 29, 2011.
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I meant F. Thank you for the correction.
Note the date on your referenced post from Dave's. I haven't looked into changing an F to a Z in HK lately, but I surely wouldn't rely upon anecdotal info that's two years old.
My point is this: why jump through hoops when there are so many schools that CAN issue a Z visa from their own provinces? |
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Zhejiang_Man
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Zhejiang
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| I surely wouldn't rely upon anecdotal info |
Anecdotal???? I published copies of the actual F visa and F.R.P. !!!!!
MY point is, by all means, offer your opinion:-
| Quote: |
| My recommendation: find a school that can bring you in on a Z visa |
However, do refrain from speculating on matters for which you have no first-hand knowledge or experience. In life generally, and especially in China, there is often more than one approach to deal with any given situation.
| Quote: |
or find someone with a magic wand. Going to China to teach on an F visa is asking for problems. |
AND, I'm in Hong Kong right now. I will collect my passport with a new F visa tomorrow. In a few weeks time when it has been converted to an F.R.P., I'll once again post pics. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Zhejiang_Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I surely wouldn't rely upon anecdotal info |
Anecdotal???? I published copies of the actual F visa and F.R.P. !!!!!
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bro. that's anecdotal
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
"The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases...."
you have offered a sample size of, uh, exactly one to prove that visas can be converted.
chinese are really tall. proof: yao ming is something like 2.29 meters tall.
therefore you, a mere 1.85 meters tall, can expect to be the shortest dude in the village.
Last edited by choudoufu on Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:58 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Working on an F Visa |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
| ON THE OTHER HAND, it seems that everyone knows of someone who came to China on an F visa, had it magically converted to a Z visa in Hong Kong, and lived happily ever after. |
I don't think anyone has claimed this. If you left China for Hong Kong with an F visa in your passport and came back with a Z visa then you obviously had the work permit and invitation letter for the Z visa. That's the only way to get a Z visa. Zhejiang man seems to be saying, and what other people might tell us is, if you come to China with an F visa it's possible to get a residence permit with just that. Or it's possible to just work on an F visa. |
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Zhejiang_Man
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Zhejiang
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| bro. that's anecdotal |
Wikipedia's good, son, but it has limitations. I mean, even you qualify to make a Wikipedia entry!
Given that you apparently needed to check the definition of anecdotal, try checking in more authorative sources such as Cambridge Dictionary, Oxford Dictionary. et al.
| Quote: |
| Zhejiang man seems to be saying, and what other people might tell us is, if you come to China with an F visa it's possible to get a residence permit with just that. |
Exactly! A Z visa IS NOT the only precursor to getting an F.R.P.. |
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bestteacher2012
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:49 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Zhejiang_Man"]
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| Quote: |
| Zhejiang man seems to be saying, and what other people might tell us is, if you come to China with an F visa it's possible to get a residence permit with just that. |
Exactly! A Z visa IS NOT the only precursor to getting an F.R.P.. |
Provided you have a Foreign Expert's Certificate, the PSB will convert any visa to a residence permit.
SAFEA who issue the FEC usually require teachers to have a Z visa or already be on a RP before issuing a FEC. |
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bestteacher2012
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Working on an F Visa |
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| Javelin of Radiance wrote: |
| Bud Powell wrote: |
| ON THE OTHER HAND, it seems that everyone knows of someone who came to China on an F visa, had it magically converted to a Z visa in Hong Kong, and lived happily ever after. |
I don't think anyone has claimed this. If you left China for Hong Kong with an F visa in your passport and came back with a Z visa then you obviously had the work permit and invitation letter for the Z visa. That's the only way to get a Z visa. Zhejiang man seems to be saying, and what other people might tell us is, if you come to China with an F visa it's possible to get a residence permit with just that. Or it's possible to just work on an F visa. |
From Zhejiang man's previous posts he was actually living and working here on a residence permit, he found a new school and they got a new FEC for him. He left the country, the old RP expired, in this case because he already has a new FEC he can come on any visa and the PSB will convert it to a RP.
Big difference to actually coming here on a F visa and THEN finding a job. This usually requires a trip to HK for a Z visa.
Last edited by bestteacher2012 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| bestteacher2012 wrote: |
From Zhejiang man's previous posts he was actually living and working here on a residence permit, he found a new school and they got a new FEC for him. He left the country, the old RP expired, in this case because he already has a new FEC he can come on any visa and the PSB will convert it to a RP.
Big difference to actually coming here on a F visa and THEN finding a job. This usually requires a trip to HK for a Z visa. |
Yes, it "usually," regularly, commonly, sometimes, mostly, and frequently does. |
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Zhejiang_Man
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Zhejiang
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| From Zhejiang man's previous posts he was actually living and working here on a residence permit, he found a new school and they got a new FEC for him. |
Not correct! As of September 2011, I had been away from China for 2 years - 1 year of traveling and 1 year in Cambodia.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=103161&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
| Quote: |
In August 2011 I was in Thailand having just completed 12 months at Pannasastra University of Cambodia. That was a good experience but the pay and conditions were woeful and I went backwards financially.
Anyway, I was trying to decide whether to do another stint in Thailand (already did 5 years there), do another stint in China (likewise, 5 years already), Vietnam or Indonesia.
I was pleasantly surprised to find a decent university position in Zhejiang on the China job board - a previously recruited teacher pulled out at the last minute.
The university wanted someone to begin teaching on Thursday, September 1 so there was no time for processing the usual paperwork. The school agreed in writing to fully fund a visa run to Hong Kong within the first month.
On August 29, 2011 I flew to Hong Kong and got a one-day F visa via an agency. I decided to pay HKD200.00 extra and get a double entry visa. I arrived on campus at midday on August 30, and began teaching on September 1.
You can view the F visa here - http://i44.tinypic.com/vhwc5e.jpg
Over the following 3 weeks, I went to Hangzhou and did a medical exam and my school got a Foreign Experts Certificate for me.
In week 4, the FAO called me to a meeting to discuss travel arrangements to Hong Kong and rescheduling (making up) missed classes. I hadn't previously given any thought to the possibility of having to do make up classes for classes missed during a visa run.
I asked the FAO whether the Public Security Bureau (the police) would convert my F visa to a Foreigners Residence Permit given that I now had an F.E.C.. Despite her confidence that they would not, I insisted that she at least ask.
Well, the PSB did convert my F visa to an F.R.P. which can been seen here - http://i39.tinypic.com/ev3kue.jpg You can see that the F.R.P. was issued on September 29, 2011.
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Zhejiang_Man wrote: |
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| bro. that's anecdotal |
....try checking in more authorative sources such as Cambridge Dictionary, Oxford Dictionary...... |
as you wish...
anecdotal: describes information that is not based on facts or careful study: anecdotal evidence
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/anecdotal?q=anecdotal
i know that's confusing for some, assuming personal experience counts
as "facts or careful study."
better stick with the googled definition:
an·ec·do·tal /ˌanikˈdōtl/ Adjective
1. (of an account) Not necessarily true or reliable, because based on
personal accounts rather than facts or research.
2. Characterized by or fond of telling anecdotes.
i done highlighted (highlit?) the 'portant part to make it easier for ya.
your welcome |
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Zhejiang_Man
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Zhejiang
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:31 am Post subject: |
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1. (of an account) Not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
2. Characterized by or fond of telling anecdotes.
i done highlighted (highlit?) the 'portant part to make it easier for ya. |
You're never going to concede that you made an error, are you son?
Now you need to check the definition of 'personal accounts'.
I published indisputable, documentary evidence, i.e. FACTS, (copies of the actual entries in my passport) of my visa transition from F to F.R.P.
Doesn't matter. You're right and I'm wrong. Finished!
Last edited by Zhejiang_Man on Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Z_M
Now look up "empirical". If you've ever taken a college course that dealt with statistics, you'll understand that one sample of evidence (though documented) isn't considered large enough to be representative of typical cases. This is one of the many problems of determining accepted procedure in China. There's a lot of anecdotal information. Empirical information seems to be non-existent regarding many matters.
You may have confused the term "anecdotal" with "hearsay". It's a very common mistake. |
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Zhejiang_Man
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Zhejiang
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Z_M
Now look up "empirical". |
A 'red herring' if ever I've seen one - introducing a term to divert attention away from the actual issue being discussed.
1. I challenged your labeling of my documented F visa to F.R.P. transition as 'anecdotal' and I now reaffirm that my report was factual and supported by documentary evidence
2. I challenged your references to 'magically converting an F visa' and 'finding someone with a magical wand' and suggested that you would be doing everyone a service if you refrain from speculating on matters for which you have no first-hand experience.
3. I have made no claims about how widespread converting an F visa is or is not. I do make the claim that IT CAN BE DONE and certainly doesn't require a 'magical wand'.
As with the other chappy, I can see that you're are never going to concede that the (mis)information you tendered is simply your opinion based on your personal views towards getting a Z visa before coming to China.
So, once again, it doesn't matter. You're right and I'm wrong. Finished! |
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