| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
Many Western powers walked away from colonialism for mainly moral reasons. They didn't lose their colonies dues to financial troubles and generally not because of violent resistance from those colonized; they decided that people deserved to govern themselves. Decisions based on morality rather than blunt force or lack thereof.
|
Oh, no. Do you really believe that? |
*scratches head*
Not a matter of believing anything, simply what historians have written. There were some exceptions. As I recall, the Belgian Congo had some ugly resistance, pressuring the colonizers to leave.
Slavery is another great example. Brits and Americans decided for moral reasons to abolish a moral undefensible practice. I realize in the US there were also other issues.
Anyway, my point stands in the general differences between Japanese and Western occupations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Solar Strength wrote: |
| Anyone know why the U.S. took such a different approach than Japan did with its colonies? |
At the risk of oversimplifying matters: Japan was intent on building an empire of emperor worshipers; America was interested in promulgating the principles of liberal democracy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pitarou wrote: |
| Solar Strength wrote: |
| Anyone know why the U.S. took such a different approach than Japan did with its colonies? |
At the risk of oversimplifying matters: Japan was intent on building an empire of emperor worshipers; America was interested in promulgating the principles of liberal democracy. |
What he said. Well put.
Interesting side note: the Taiwanese today seem to have a much more positive attitude towards the Japanese. The Japanese occupation of Taiwan was more benevolent, relatively speaking. I don't see much of the anti-Japanese sentiments that are more common in South Korea and mainland China. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Solar Strength
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 557
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| steki47 wrote: |
| Americans decided for moral reasons to abolish a moral undefensible practice. I realize in the US there were also other issues |
Slavery was a very popular system of labor that many Americans fought to keep. The veracity of your statement regarding moral reasons for its abolishment is doubtful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| steki47 wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
Many Western powers walked away from colonialism for mainly moral reasons. They didn't lose their colonies dues to financial troubles and generally not because of violent resistance from those colonized; they decided that people deserved to govern themselves. Decisions based on morality rather than blunt force or lack thereof.
|
Oh, no. Do you really believe that? |
*scratches head*
Not a matter of believing anything, simply what historians have written. There were some exceptions. As I recall, the Belgian Congo had some ugly resistance, pressuring the colonizers to leave.
Slavery is another great example. Brits and Americans decided for moral reasons to abolish a moral undefensible practice. I realize in the US there were also other issues.
Anyway, my point stands in the general differences between Japanese and Western occupations. |
Which historians have written that? Sounds very much like ones with an obvious pro-American imperialism agenda. Read works by Howard Zinn, a great American historian, to get a more balanced view. He's particularly good in describing US imperial drives from the foundation of the states.
Here's another viewpoint: the existence of the Soviet Union, which offered a liberation programme to peoples oppressed by imperialism, presented a massive challenge to traditional empire-building. The old, overt land-grabbing method was replaced by a more subtle form of economic enslavement. Dressed up as self-determination and liberalism, it is true. But only as a naked figure is dressed up with a fig-leaf.
Judeo-Christian values have little to do with anything. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Solar Strength wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| Americans decided for moral reasons to abolish a moral undefensible practice. I realize in the US there were also other issues |
Slavery was a very popular system of labor that many Americans fought to keep. The veracity of your statement regarding moral reasons for its abolishment is doubtful. |
Well, the North for starters was generally against slavery. This may have involved a desire to crush the South economically, but the moral abhorrence of the practice was also there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Which historians have written that? Sounds very
much like ones with an obvious pro-American imperialism agenda. |
Huntington and Grant come to mind. The former does not strike me as pro-US imperialism. Pro-Westerner, perhaps.
To be honest, I have heard of Zinn but don't think I have read him.
Rather than simply replying tit-for-tat to rebuttals (good ones, by the way), I would simply restate that some Western nations sometimes made decisions to relinquish power for moral reasons rather than due to violent resistance or economic pressures. Something we did not see with the Japanese in WWII. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Samuel P? He is as far to the right as Zinn is to the left. His Clash of Civilizations book is seen as very partisan and extremely skewed, however eloquent.
Anyway, while I too have no wish for a schoolyard row about geopolitics, I would just say that I cannot think of one instance where an empire voluntarily gave up holdings without some external pressure applied, or internal exhaustion forcing the process. Sure, the imperialists may proclaim after the game is up how they wanted to promulgate democratic values all along, a la the Atlantic Charter. But decolonialisation really had nothing to do with these lofty ideals.
If you are interested, check out A People's History of the United States, by Zinn. A cracking history book. But be warned, if you think my pronouncements are radically leftie, then... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Anyway, while I too have no wish for a schoolyard row about geopolitics |
Nor do I. Thanks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ever thought you might have been the victim of state brain washing, Steki?
Anyway, thought I'd add a little nugget I saw on Japanese TV last night to the mix.
It was to do with the anniversary of the Martin Luther King speech. There was a young African American boy talking about discrimination. One of the things he said was "I don't want to be labeled as 'The black boy'. Now guess what was written in the top left hand corner of the TV screen...
Yep, you guessed it...
黒人少年。。。 なんとか なんとか。。。
Brought a smile to my face anyway.
Oh, and just to make myself clear, I'm not talking about the subtitles, I'm talking about the program desription/title that stays displayed throughout the program. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| nightsintodreams wrote: |
| Ever thought you might have been the victim of state brain washing, Steki? |
No, but thanks for telling me.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| steki47 wrote: |
| nightsintodreams wrote: |
| Ever thought you might have been the victim of state brain washing, Steki? |
No, but thanks for telling me. |
So I have a different take on history and I am brainwashed? Yeah, buddy.
My original point and back to the original topic was that Western nations, while they have certainly done "bad" things, have also done many "good" things that have benefitted all of humanity. I don't really see that in Japanese imperialism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Could be because all these supposed 'good' things stemming from imperialism take time to set up. Compared to other empires, the Japanese didn't have much time in their imperial adventure before they were crushed by American imperialism. Who knows what civilizing miracles the Japanese could have realised if they had been successful in their endevours? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Could be because all these supposed 'good' things stemming from imperialism take time to set up. Compared to other empires, the Japanese didn't have much time in their imperial adventure before they were crushed by American imperialism. Who knows what civilizing miracles the Japanese could have realised if they had been successful in their endevours? |
Very good point. The Japanese occupation of Taiwan was relatively beneficial and could have continued had it not been for outside intervention. I suppose one could argue that Taiwan's economic rise in the 20th century was from seeds planted by the Japanese. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Who knows what civilizing miracles the Japanese could have realised if they had been successful in their endevours? |
That's a good way to get yourself lynched in Singapore.
But I hear they don't hate their previous colonial masters (the British). Funny thing, that... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
