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sprightly · Joined: 07 May 2003 Posts: 136 Location: England

i was playing a vocabulary revision game with some students, and as they were completely stuck on the only remaining word, i allowed them to use their mobile dictionaries in a race.

all teams came up with the same word, which i'd never come across in my life--it turned out to be Scots English. I had an interactive whiteboard, so we had a good mini lesson in dictionary use.

i played that game with another group of students--exact same result. who puts scots english into a chinese-english translator??

johnslat · Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject:

Dear sprightly,

" . . . who puts scots english into a chinese-english translator??"

A Scot, I would guess. Very Happy

Regards,
John

Sashadroogie · Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:30 pm Post subject:

Och tell us what the Scots English word was, will ya?!

I remember when somebody on the China board was convinced that the phrase 'poor English' was Chinglish, or something idiolectical. The daft bampot : )

greegor · Joined: 23 Sep 2011 Posts: 8 Location: Guangzhou, China

I would agree with Sashadroogie that a well-trained and experienced ESL teacher shouldn't NEED L1 in any level.

I will also admit, though, that now that I teach small children, I have used it some (usually using a T.A. so students don't know I speak their language), but that's A) admitted laziness on my part and B) frustration teaching seemingly intentionally thick kids who are not particularly interested in learning English at all. (I am returning to teaching adults next month; I can hardly wait.)

I have some experience on the other side of the desk, though, as well. If English is used to help me learn a language, particularly vocabulary, then what sticks in my head is the translation and not the target. I had an argument with my (now ex) wife once that left me so traumatized that I was incapable for YEARS to remember the Chinese word for "scissors"! Her English got better living with me, because I used only English with her and she was forced to look elsewhere for Chinese explanations. My Chinese got nowhere because she insisted on translating everything she could for me.

To learn a language (now working on Chinese, years ago did this with Spanish), I have found it best to study on my own and have a two-hour tutoring session with someone who speaks absolutely no English at all. The tutor goes through the unit I had studied that week and checked to see if I managed to grasp it sufficiently and if I had, I'd move on to the next unit the following week, and make a point of practicing the new language as much as possible in between sessions. I have studied both Chinese and Spanish in this way from a level of absolute zero and it worked well...but then, I had my own motivation and wanted to learn. I started doing this because I was unable to find low-level Spanish or Chinese classes where the teacher did not lean on English as a crutch to teach the students, and I found it frustrating.

My point is, I should (and with adults absolutely do) teach the way I would be taught to.

dragonpiwo · Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 1650 Location: Berlin

I honestly believe that at lower levels with adults the best teacher mix is one class, 2 teachers one of whom has the ability to use L1, teaching alternate lessons. Certainly L1 can be very useful explaining tense function. I know this from my own experiences learning French and from my 'Allo Allo' Polish after years of total immersion. I think just using the target language can also be extremely stressful and also cultural norms make the process even harder for some when only L2 is used.

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:41 pm Post subject:

Nah. A properly skilled teacher can help even beginners to deal with the tense system. Part of that skill is moving away from 'explaining' as such.

Dunno what is meant by cultural norms making things even more stressful, though.

dragonpiwo · Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 1650 Location: Berlin

Arabs don't go for that inductive learning, guided discovery, joining the dots etc. They find using L2 all the time impossible generally.

In Poland lots of schools use the 2 teacher approach and it works just fine and the students like it a lot.

And different learners have different styles of learning...some like explanation to 'get it' some don't.

Skilful teacher or not using L1 is sometimes so much more efficient.

Audio lingual, direct method, TPR lend themselves well to just using L2 but with TBL and CLIL it's not necessarily the case. I'd love to see you teach the word Amine (used in gas sweetening) using just L2...it's so much easier in L1. Just an example.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:01 pm Post subject:

Dear dragonpiwo,

"They (Arabs) find using L2 all the time impossible generally."

That has never been my experience. I taught Arabs for 19 years in Saudi, and I've taught them for 10 years here in the States.

The hard part most often is getting them to shut up (when they're speaking "fluent," but not very accurate. English.) Smile

Regards,
John

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:47 pm Post subject:

Teach the word amine using just L2? Sure. Here's how: "Gentlemen, please look up the word 'amine' in your dictionary."

Cheating? Perhaps. But imparting decent dictionary skills is more important than knowing L1.

dragonpiwo · Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 1650 Location: Berlin

Well John I'm sat here now with a group of teachers who've got not less than 15 years experience each. We've all taught in several Middle Eastern countries and we all agree that getting students to speak only in L2 is 'difficult', 'painful', 'impossible all of the time'. That said, most of have taught in military and or oil and gas environments, where the students aren't always/usually that motivated. Asking unmotivated students the make 'the great leap' is another thing we could talk about. I know from my own experience teaching 'philologia' students in Poland that they always spoke English, so perhaps John we've had different learner groups.

Look,I'm not a L2 puritan. I think there's a time and place for L1 when teaching. Lots agree and lots disagree.

Like most of TEFL, it isn't black and white. If people like Skinner, Chomsky and Prabhu can't agree on stuff, who am I to wax lyrical?

santi84 · Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: under da sea

Does everyone's thoughts on this extend to textbooks as well?

I'm reading Deux Mondes by Terrell and I have to admit, it has been a lifesaver. I'm not sure if that is because of how it is written or because it offers solid L1 explanations in the first few chapters.

Sashadroogie · Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject:

Don't know the book in question, but again, I'll imperiously dismiss it out of hand : )

Instructions-giving is a basic TEFLy skill. This can, and should, be done through English. If somebody has to resort to L1 instructions, then they are not really up to EFL scratch. Kiddies classes, adults, businessmen, any nationality - makes no difference. We should be able to give instructions to any class profile, and L1 instructions should not be needed. And so L1 in course book material is at best redundant, at worst distracting and impeding.

Teacher in Rome · Joined: 09 Jul 2003 Posts: 1286

Sashadroogie · Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject:

You could do. And I could reply that I have some similarly sad experience where TEFL principles have to be abandoned because of external circumstances. L2 isn't going to help the learning process in those situations either, though...