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davelister
Joined: 15 Jul 2013
Posts: 214
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 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| 76.62% of statistics are made up on the spot |
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CFTU-Beijing
Joined: 25 Jan 2013
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
| CFTU-Beijing wrote: |
| But over 700 of our members work at universities and those that completed our 2012 annual teachers survey indicate the standard average uni wage in China is 6,000 yuan per month. |
So your survey of 700 members tells you the average is 6,000 per month. I can accept and relate to that.
But then confused why the other link you spammed / posted tonight about minimum salaries suggests PT work for degree holders should command a minimum of 225 per hour?
Assuming 14 hours per week that would mean a monthly salary of 13,650 a month? Wildly different to what your own survey suggests as an average salary?
The idea of supporting teachers and providing genuine help has merit, of course it does ... but it has to be based on something solid. There is far too much inconsistency, and to be frank, total nonsense in your posts ... that few people on this forum will be able to take your seriously. |
Maybe I did not explain this the right way if you are confused. I will try a different way... The 6,000 yuan per month is only applicable as the average salary for uni professors, but does not include the value of a free furnished apartment nor three free meals a day. If we add in that value we could say the average university compensation is about 12,000 a month in large cities and about 10,000 a month elsewhere.
As for what our table at our web site puts forth as actual average monthly salaries, that is based on the average month salaries of our members, the vast majority of which do not use agents. This is perhaps why the numbers look high to you (if you used an agent). All foreign expat teachers in China could be earning these salaries if they STOP using agents and recruiters and negotiate their own contract using the leverage that there are over 9,000 less foreign esl teachers working in China this year than last. Supply and demand only works in your favor if you have the courage to use this chart when negotiating your own contract:
http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.com/2013/06/china-foreign-teachers-suggested-hourly.html
And if you think that agents do not make that big of a difference in YOUR take home pay, read these three stories and the 67 comments from your fellow teachers on our web site, and you will see this is a COMMON problem. Most (but not all) agents are greedy parasites.
http://www.onlinetefl.com/tefl-chalkboard/vagabond/posts/13379-too-many-scam-agents-amp-recruiters-in-china-be-careful-fellow-expat-foreign-teachers
http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum/2013/01/31/beware-chinaesl-scam-alert-rebecca-tang-will-rip-you
http://www.onlinetefl.com/tefl-chalkboard/fransa150/posts/13383-the-case-for-agents
The above links are self-explanatory and I hope you read them before making more comments based only on your own experience which may be limited or... fortunate. In our 2012 CFTU annual survey, 52% of China expat teachers said they were cheated at least once by their own agent or school. You can read the report from that survey at www.ChinaForeignTeacdhersUnion.org
Screen Print No: ESLCAFE-28.9.24.13 |
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Kysorb
Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Posts: 253
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| CFTU-Beijing wrote: |
Perhaps the honest agents may be offended but they certainly understand why people must take such measures to protect themselves. Again, I ask you, would you rather find out the hard way you have a thief for an agent after you already have a problem, or prevent the problem?
Screen Print No: ESLCAFE-27.9.24.13 |
Unemployed people typically have a million reasons and excuses why.... Boss was an jerk is probably one of the top 5.... At the end of the day they all those unemployed people have one thing in common versus me.... I made money today and they made instant noodles. |
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Kysorb
Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Posts: 253
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CFTU-Beijing wrote: |
Perhaps the honest agents may be offended but they certainly understand why people must take such measures to protect themselves. Again, I ask you, would you rather find out the hard way you have a thief for an agent after you already have a problem, or prevent the problem?
Screen Print No: ESLCAFE-27.9.24.13 |
Unemployed people typically have a million reasons and excuses why.... Boss was an jerk is probably one of the top 5.... At the end of the day they all those unemployed people have one thing in common versus me.... I made money today and they made instant noodles. |
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mambawamba
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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This is a genuine question, why use a recruiter?
It may be a Brit thing but I've not met anyone from the UK who's used one. Would love to know if this is the norm. |
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teenoso
Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 365
Location: south china
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| I am British and have twice found jobs through angelina's esl cafe. Don't know whether they are recruiters or agents, or whether they get a fee from the employer, but they have lots of jobs in the public sector , and they did not mess me around (whereas networkesl did try to bait and switch me). I have heard 'angelina's ' is a kind of 'official' govt. recruiter or clearing house for jobs, but I found their service efficient and straightforward. They set up an interview with the employer very quickly. |
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mambawamba
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:50 am Post subject: |
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@teenoso
Thanks for the reply. Seriously in 12 years off and on here not met another Brit who's used one so it's interesting to hear.
Mamba |
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Bolt
Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 34
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:05 am Post subject: Re: How To Find Honest Agents and Recruiters in China... |
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| CFTU-Beijing wrote: |
Yes, indeed there are honest and ethical agents and recruiters in China and abroad. There are not many but finding them is like finding the proverbial "needle in the haystack." Let's put it in perspective... In all of China there are only 329 registered/licensed teacher recruiters and agents. Yet there are over 300,000 teaching job ads placed every year by over 2,000 self-professed agents and recruiters. They fall into four basic categories:
A) Honest and ethical
B) Dishonest & Unethical
C) Identity thieves
D) Greedy (taking more than a 20%-66% monthly commission of teacher
salaries.)
All four categories advertise openly and covertly (blind ads) on the internet and on multiple ESL/TEFL forums which lends them credibility and wide viewership. So how to find one of the 329 licensed/registered agents or recruiters?
There are 4 easy and FREE ways to filter out all the bad apple agents and recruiters as follows:
[1] BEFORE you send copies of your passport and visas to any agent or recruiter, send them this form letter and ask them to complete and return it to you with all the blanks completed
http://www.englishpost.com/data/attachment/forum/201303/15/172204rq6jrrzvqnnzhiir.jpg
Honest agents and recruiters will not onject to transparency and be proud to prove they are legitimate. If they refuse to fill in all the blanks or fail to return the letter, move on and avoid all further contact with them as they are probably scammers. The letter is self-explanatory.
For those who do return the letter, be sure you verify the information online, especially the registration, which you can do at the below links or by asking a CFTU volunteer to run a check (just send an email)
Shanghai AIC: http://www.sgs.gov.cn/lz/etpsInfo.do?method=index
Beijing AIC: http://qyxy.baic.gov.cn/zhcx/zhcxAction!query.dhtml
Guangzhou AIC: http://www.gzaic.gov.cn/GZAIC_Portal/WebUI/credit/qiyeInfo.htm
[2] You can google search the name of the agent with the words "problem, scam, complaint" and see what if anything pops up.
[3] You can check the various CTA and CFTU blacklists at www.ChinaScamBusters.com and http://www.zimbio.com/Shanghai+China/articles/4lF4npQruDh/2013+School+Agent+Blacklist+Published+China
[4] You can post an inquiry here at Dave's ESLCafe to ask others if they had any good or bad experiences with a particular agent.
But here are a few things to remember to obtain from whatever agent you plan to use (Just in case things go South)
A) Their full and complete legal name as per a scanned color copy of their government id card (if Chinese) and a full color scan of their passport (if they are foreigners)
B) Contracts that are in English that are signed, dated, and sealed on each page which specifically address working locations, hours, days, pay, insurance, visas, release letters, and who pays for all of them. You need to have a hard copy original in your hands BEFORE coming to China along with your Z visa.
C) Verifiable office address and land-line telephone numbers of the agents since more than 80% operate only from disposable mobile phone numbers and free email addresses like hotmail.com, 126.com, 163.com, sina.com, gmail.com, yeah.net, qq.com.
Lastly, if any agent tells you to come to China on an L, F, or M visa to work RUN! You can only legally work in China with a Z visa and that Z visa needs to be provided to you along with a signed contract BEFORE you buy your plane tickets. Scam agents won't care about your legal problems, deportation, fines, nor reentry bans if you get caught working without a Z visa. Whatever they say verbally, make sure it is in writing in your contract or take a pass on that agent.
Follow the above advice and you will greatly reduce your chances of being swindled. And NEVER give copies of your passport and visa to anyone other than a "direct employer". If you need to know why, you can read this article: http://open.salon.com/blog/china_business_central/2013/03/13/phony_china_recruiters_now_target_5000_expats_monthly_1
Screen Print No: ESLCAFE-13.9.21.13 |
Very interesting solution. My guess is that most letters will not receive a reply and perhaps maybe those who do reply may give fake info. But at least you can eliminate the agnets who do not bother to reply because they would probably be like China ESL or this one http://www.onlinetefl.com/tefl-chalkboard/fransa150/posts/13383-the-case-for-agents |
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NP1970
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 35
Location: Beijing/Tianjin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| If there really were honest agents in China, people would be recommending them here and then others would quickly dig up the dirt on them. I'm not sure about all the statistics but personally I have probably heard ten time more horror stories than happy-ending agent fairy tales in the last two years. |
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Bolt
Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 34
Location: China
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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I mentioned this on another thread. (I thought that it was this one, but it's not here).
Dealing with someone who uses a school's email address, is not always indicative of dealing directly with a school. Many schools' supposed employees that I have spoken to over Skype (after having applied and corresponded with someone who used the school's email) often can't answer questions and admit that they aren't employees of the school. In my experience, the most common scenario has been that I contacted the school's email address, got an agent who approved of me, then I was handed over to someone who REALLY worked for the school.
As far as ALL (or most) agents being crooks goes, nobody can say that. One person who arrives at a school only to find that the school is not The Promised Land then complains about it can't always give a fair opinion until he has lived in China for a while and has worked in several schools.
I think what is more often the case is that the recruiter is lied to BY THE SCHOOL regarding the school conditions. Most recruiters don't know the schools and have not visited it, so they must believe what they are told. Another problem is that the recruiters don't know the FAO, a person who can make life quite difficult.
When the FT leaves, he doesn't always report back to the recruiter, or if he runs into a snag, he may not report it to the recruiter. I was once recruited to work for a school that was actually good, but the living conditions were prison-like and the FAO was a harridan. I called the recruiter who called the FAO and straightened her out regarding the law. The recruiter was able to induce the FAO to improve living conditions, but not to a great extent.
Further compounding the problem is that the newbie is sometimes gullible, so he doesn't know what questions to ask in order to ensure that he is a good match for the school.
Nobody has empirical knowledge of all FTs' experience with recruiters. |
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NP1970
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 35
Location: Beijing/Tianjin
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: How To Find Honest Agents and Recruiters in China... |
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| Bolt wrote: |
| CFTU-Beijing wrote: |
Yes, indeed there are honest and ethical agents and recruiters in China and abroad. There are not many but finding them is like finding the proverbial "needle in the haystack." Let's put it in perspective... In all of China there are only 329 registered/licensed teacher recruiters and agents. Yet there are over 300,000 teaching job ads placed every year by over 2,000 self-professed agents and recruiters. They fall into four basic categories:
A) Honest and ethical
B) Dishonest & Unethical
C) Identity thieves
D) Greedy (taking more than a 20%-66% monthly commission of teacher
salaries.)
All four categories advertise openly and covertly (blind ads) on the internet and on multiple ESL/TEFL forums which lends them credibility and wide viewership. So how to find one of the 329 licensed/registered agents or recruiters?
There are 4 easy and FREE ways to filter out all the bad apple agents and recruiters as follows:
[1] BEFORE you send copies of your passport and visas to any agent or recruiter, send them this form letter and ask them to complete and return it to you with all the blanks completed
http://www.englishpost.com/data/attachment/forum/201303/15/172204rq6jrrzvqnnzhiir.jpg
Honest agents and recruiters will not onject to transparency and be proud to prove they are legitimate. If they refuse to fill in all the blanks or fail to return the letter, move on and avoid all further contact with them as they are probably scammers. The letter is self-explanatory.
For those who do return the letter, be sure you verify the information online, especially the registration, which you can do at the below links or by asking a CFTU volunteer to run a check (just send an email)
Shanghai AIC: http://www.sgs.gov.cn/lz/etpsInfo.do?method=index
Beijing AIC: http://qyxy.baic.gov.cn/zhcx/zhcxAction!query.dhtml
Guangzhou AIC: http://www.gzaic.gov.cn/GZAIC_Portal/WebUI/credit/qiyeInfo.htm
[2] You can google search the name of the agent with the words "problem, scam, complaint" and see what if anything pops up.
[3] You can check the various CTA and CFTU blacklists at www.ChinaScamBusters.com and http://www.zimbio.com/Shanghai+China/articles/4lF4npQruDh/2013+School+Agent+Blacklist+Published+China
[4] You can post an inquiry here at Dave's ESLCafe to ask others if they had any good or bad experiences with a particular agent.
But here are a few things to remember to obtain from whatever agent you plan to use (Just in case things go South)
A) Their full and complete legal name as per a scanned color copy of their government id card (if Chinese) and a full color scan of their passport (if they are foreigners)
B) Contracts that are in English that are signed, dated, and sealed on each page which specifically address working locations, hours, days, pay, insurance, visas, release letters, and who pays for all of them. You need to have a hard copy original in your hands BEFORE coming to China along with your Z visa.
C) Verifiable office address and land-line telephone numbers of the agents since more than 80% operate only from disposable mobile phone numbers and free email addresses like hotmail.com, 126.com, 163.com, sina.com, gmail.com, yeah.net, qq.com.
Lastly, if any agent tells you to come to China on an L, F, or M visa to work RUN! You can only legally work in China with a Z visa and that Z visa needs to be provided to you along with a signed contract BEFORE you buy your plane tickets. Scam agents won't care about your legal problems, deportation, fines, nor reentry bans if you get caught working without a Z visa. Whatever they say verbally, make sure it is in writing in your contract or take a pass on that agent.
Follow the above advice and you will greatly reduce your chances of being swindled. And NEVER give copies of your passport and visa to anyone other than a "direct employer". If you need to know why, you can read this article: http://open.salon.com/blog/china_business_central/2013/03/13/phony_china_recruiters_now_target_5000_expats_monthly_1
Screen Print No: ESLCAFE-13.9.21.13 |
Very interesting solution. My guess is that most letters will not receive a reply and perhaps maybe those who do reply may give fake info. But at least you can eliminate the agnets who do not bother to reply because they would probably be like China ESL or this one http://www.onlinetefl.com/tefl-chalkboard/fransa150/posts/13383-the-case-for-agents |
Okay but read this link and then tell me if you really think this "David Wu" character is really going to put real information on this letter?
http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org/2012/12/new-oriental-agent-scam-uncovered-in.html
If this clown has the balls to print up counterfeit cards saying he works for New Oriental as their recruiter, he's not going to think twice about fabricating information on a form!!!!! |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: How To Find Honest Agents and Recruiters in China... |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
| If this clown has the balls to print up counterfeit cards saying he works for New Oriental as their recruiter, he's not going to think twice about fabricating information on a form!!!!! |
like the clown writing counterfeit articles to paste on counterfeit
websites about counterfeit unions? right, the once who doesn't think
twice about fabricating information on a forum!!!! |
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NP1970
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 35
Location: Beijing/Tianjin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:17 am Post subject: Re: How To Find Honest Agents and Recruiters in China... |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| NP1970 wrote: |
| If this clown has the balls to print up counterfeit cards saying he works for New Oriental as their recruiter, he's not going to think twice about fabricating information on a form!!!!! |
like the clown writing counterfeit articles to paste on counterfeit
websites about counterfeit unions? right, the once who doesn't think
twice about fabricating information on a forum!!!! |
Actually more like the clown who never really has anything constructive to say but spends his days attacking messengers instead of the message in violation of the forum rules. Why is it so hard for you to deal with the OP and submit some real opinion, suggestion, or original ideas of your own. Constantly attacking people reduces your cred to miniscule levels and makes you as likable as a hemorrhoid. How do YOU find an honest agent in China mate? |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:02 am Post subject: Re: How To Find Honest Agents and Recruiters in China... |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
| attacking messengers instead of the message in violation of the forum rules. Why is it so hard for you to deal with the OP and submit some real opinion, suggestion, or original ideas of your own. |
you really don't see it? YOU are the message.
some dude claiming to run china's "only private union," managing around
a dozen sockpuppet personae, most agreeing with/supporting each other,
some as "new" members asking seemingly legitimate questions, but
suddenly "finding" the desired (mis)information on the "union" site, filling
forums (forae?) with spam, linking to multiple "vanity" publishing websites
or personally-owned sites to provide "proof" of dubious claims?
yep.....i'm worried about my "credibility."  |
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