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ingrained mixed-up grammar tenses

 
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JN



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 214

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: ingrained mixed-up grammar tenses Reply with quote

I have a fairly advanced student (maybe level B2-C1) that uses many grammar tenses wrongly and has done so for a number of years. Her most recent question is what is the difference between using was and using have been.

I have been trying to figure out how I can best help her with grammar, since the wrong usage is so ingrained. I think I will first concentrate on the difference between was and have been, and not worry about much of the other grammar. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to help someone relearn grammar, aside from doing grammar worksheets and correcting her each time? She's also not very interested in doing homework.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear JN,

The problem, of course, is that both tenses talk about past time.

You might try explaining to him that when using "was" (and all the other past simple tense verbs, the action (or state of being) is over/finished. There's no connection to the present. What was true in the past is NOT true now. Moreover, there are usually specific time markers involved (yesterday ____, last _______, ________ago, in 2003, etc.

I was sad yesterday (means you aren't sad now).

whereas the present perfect simple tense the action (or state of being) is in the general past and, in cases of states of being, is often up to now.

I have been sad for the last three days (means you began feeling sad three days ago and you're feeling sad now).

Of course, the "have been" could also speak about times in his life before now.

I have been sad only two times in my life (so far).

But when those feelings happened remains unknown.

You could have him try to come up with examples from his own life.

I was a happy child. I have been a (whatever his job is) _________ since _________.

Although it doesn't deal specifically with "was" and "have been," I like to use the following two sentences with my students.

1. Jose never saw snow in his life.

2. Jose has never seen snow in his life.

I tell the students that both sentences are correct, but that they have very different meanings. Then, I ask them to try to tell me the difference.

Most of the time, a student will see that the Jose in the first sentence is dead, whereas the Jose in the second is still alive.

Hope this helps a little.

It's probably one of the hardest distinctions in English to master. Even "native speakers" often get it wrong.

Regards,
John
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an old but good paper by Jack Richards (in his collection The Context of Language Teaching) on how to (not) teach Present Perfect. His main point is that one should present the most dissimilar use of a potentially confusible/functionally-overlapping form. Given the likely progression in most syllabuses from Simple Past to Present Perfect, that most dissimilar function would be the latter's experiential aspect. (But that shouldn't be an excuse to do endless token tick-box 'Have you ever...?'-style milling activities - make sure people actually run through the discoursal implications! From PP generalities the speaker proceeds to, or is asked to provide, SP specifics). One compares that to approaches that seem to thoughtlessly select the most similar and with the old form overlapping function of the new form, as shown (and demolished) by Richards, and as I've witnessed in training. No wonder learners end up with problems. But one may~will have to eventually deal with PP's other aspects too, unfortunately lol.

Last edited by fluffyhamster on Sun May 11, 2014 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear fluffyhamster,

"His main point is that one should present the most dissimilar use of a potentially confusible/functionally-overlapping form. In the case of the likely progression in most syllabuses from Simple Past to Present Perfect, that most dissimilar function would be the latter's experiential aspect. (But that shouldn't be an excuse to do endless token tick-box 'Have you ever...?'-style milling activities."

Most dissimilar? And yet, one of the most common misuses is "Did you ever . . . " Very Happy

Regards,
John
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear readers,

The use of tenses to some, such as Chinese, is extremely difficult to introduce and that not only for the differences in between the languages of English and Chinese but also for the ways Chinese teachers of English present the new language to their students.

What I have established is a kind of a timetable/datelines that offer students clearer pictures of the given times they are using in the language. Whenever the students mix tenses up, their errors are put in those timetables/datelines. Advanced students are often capable to identify mistakes as long as they are given the time. My patience usually pays off in the class.

I hope this is helpful enough for all the concerned.

Regards,
Joe
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, I thought you meant an Americanism until I fully processed 'misuses' LOL. But it would seem an easy enough error to treat - the kosher uses of 'did you ever' are usually pretty rhetorical and/or come with plenty of shared known info~context compared to comparatively "vacant/free" Have you ever...? questions; then, the 'ever' will in vacant/free contexts help signal the intended meaning even if the verb phrasing is a bit off (i.e. SP rather than PP). Anyway, here are two examples from the OALD6:

Did you ever hear anything like it?

Did he ever pay you back that $100 he owes you?
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
Did you ever hear anything like it?
Yes but then my grandma told me something else. Now, I have heard it all.

fluffyhamster wrote:
]Did he ever pay you back that $100 he owes you
Why would you say he owes me? Why would you ask me whether he paid me in the past? Why wouldn't you ask me if he paid me what he owned me in the past? Why wouldn't you ask me whether he has paid me what he has owed me so far?

I realize you haven't addressed me in your post, so I am sorry. Perhaps, I am just having an anxiety attack. After all, those examples come from somewhere else.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Joe. Sorry for ignoring you, but I wasn't sure of the value of timeline diagrams here (by which I mean they'd certainly all look the same for the various functions of Present Perfect itself, when its experiential use can be so easily demonstrated in basic conversation, as I pointed out in my previous post. I do appreciate that PP versus Simple Past diagrams look different to each other though! Wink).

Regarding the "payback" example, if it used PP rather than SP, there'd then be the suggestion, however fleeting, that he'd be or had been paying back more than the once! (But that would actually be a valid suggestion in a context of partial repayments plural as opposed to in one lump sum: Has he ever paid you back at all, even in part, that $100 he still owes you?).
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wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Present perfect discusses an action in the past that continues on until now. Past implies that the action is over.

I have been riding a bike since I was 4.
I learned how to ride a bike when I was 4.

for Joe:

我从四岁可以/会骑自行车。
我四岁学会了怎么骑自行车。

You are right that the methods of expressing time are different, but they are certainly understandable.
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wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wonderingjoesmith wrote:
fluffyhamster wrote:
Did you ever hear anything like it?
Yes but then my grandma told me something else. Now, I have heard it all.

fluffyhamster wrote:
]Did he ever pay you back that $100 he owes you
Why would you say he owes me? Why would you ask me whether he paid me in the past? Why wouldn't you ask me if he paid me what he owned me in the past? Why wouldn't you ask me whether he has paid me what he has owed me so far?

I realize you haven't addressed me in your post, so I am sorry. Perhaps, I am just having an anxiety attack. After all, those examples come from somewhere else.


Personally, I would as, has he paid you back yet?

Person owes you money from the past, and has yet to pay you back.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in the OALD example, the speaker might well have previously asked 'Has he paid you back yet?', since when quite a lot of time may have elapsed, hence the use and appropriacy of 'Did he ever pay you back?'.
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JN



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 214

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the answers and interesting discussion which I am still digesting, as I have been extremely busy with other things lately.
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JN



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 214

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am now back online and wanted to again thank people for their answers.

To wonderingjoesmith: I'll have to remember to put students errors in a timeline. That sounds like a good idea.

To Johnslat: Thanks for the examples which I will continue to use. I finally told the lady I was working with that she needed to not worry so much about the grammar and to relax a little, but also to continue to have lessons or find opportunities to practice her English. I have some students in A2 and B1 classes that are starting to have the same problem. I am hoping I can help them out before this becomes ingrained in their speaking.
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