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katylady
Joined: 15 Nov 2013
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: Hong Kong CertTESOL or Shanghai CELTA? |
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I am planning on coming to China in the spring of 2014. I have narrowed down my search between Hong Kong and Shanghai. My research has led me to believe that CELTA is the certification that will provide the most opportunity as a young female with two bachelor's degrees. However, Hong Kong does not have a CELTA course, but it does offer a CertTESOL course (which is comparable).
I am planning on moving just on a student visa, then searching for a job after completion of the course. Please tell me about your experiences in either of these places. Which city do you prefer? Which has more teaching opportunity? Does anyone have experience with these respective CELTA/CertTESOL centers? How helpful are they with finding apartments and jobs afterward?
I have been reading that it's becoming increasingly difficult to get a working visa in Hong Kong. Is this true?
Any feedback on Hong Kong and Shanghai would be very much appreciated!!
Last edited by katylady on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Terryouyang
Joined: 18 Nov 2013
Posts: 2
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Both HK and Shanghai are very internationlized cities. It is hard to say which is better. we have our own preference.
Actually, TEFL and TESOl are also widely recognized in China, personally, I do not think CELTA is better.
I will be easier for you to get visa and teachin in mainland China. |
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teenoso
Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 365
Location: south china
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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The two cities are really entirely different job markets with different needs and teacher qualification requirements. HK has its own educational system , and 2 BAs and a TEFL cert. may not be enough even to get a basic job there. There is a separate forum for HK , so look there for advice.
Shanghai employers won't care whether you have CELTA or TESOL (I guess) . Coming on a student visa and studying in SH first is not a bad idea, provided the CELTA course there is good (no clue ) , but you may not be able to convert your student visa to a work visa in China (nor even by going to HK). So a trip home may be necessary.
I think now there is a special visa which allows study and work on the mainland , so you could look into that , but it is a new visa category , so there may not be much advice about this out there.
Horses for courses, but I would not work in either city, because they are very expensive , and teachers' salaries are low (compared to what the ex-pat business types will be earning). It is pretty easy to find accommodation in Shanghai, so don't worry too much about that . |
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zactherat
Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| TEFL and TESOl are also widely recognized in China, personally, I do not think CELTA is better. |
To clarify some terminology being used (bandied about) here:
TEFL = The field of teaching English as a foreign language, it's not the name of one certificate, but a very general term. The CELTA and TESOL are both types of TEFL cert.
CELTA = Cambridge TEFL certificate
TESOL = (usually refers to the) Trinity TEFL certificate (although this acronym is used generally too)
CELTA is the best recognized course, not just in China but globally. I'd go for that one every time. What you find, interestingly, is that people who have done it say it's really good, whereas people that haven't done it (but opted to do a weekend online one or something instead) dispute its quality.
Many employers will attest to the fact that the CELTA is a reliable indication of a particular standard of abilitiy. Some haphazard employers won't know the difference between certs, but the ones that you want to be working for will. |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| zactherat wrote: |
CELTA is the best recognized course, not just in China but globally. I'd go for that one every time. What you find, interestingly, is that people who have done it say it's really good, whereas people that haven't done it (but opted to do a weekend online one or something instead) dispute its quality. |
Can you provide sources for this? Almost all of the posts I've read on this and other forums do not question the quality of the CELTA course, but do question it's usefulness as a paper qualification if one intends teaching in China. A look through the China job section on this site just now shows no mention of CELTA whatsoever. The general view of those people who don't have CELTA certification seems to be 'why spend all of that time and money on something I don't need to get a job?'
The other part of the 'CELTA or not' discussions seems to centre around whether what one would learn doing the CELTA course would prove to be of value when teaching in the rather unique conditions that one finds in the Chinese classroom. I don't have a CELTA certificate, only a TEFL certificate, but I do have a lot of experience as a teacher, and the benefit of spending probably hundreds of hours researching and reading about teaching English as a foreign language. I can say quite unequivocally that most of that time was wasted since the knowledge I gained just doesn't work in the majority of the situations I find myself teaching in here in China. Is it just me? It's possible I'm missing something, but I have talked with other teachers who have both CELTA certification and many years experience teaching English in other countries, and they all say the same thing. Most of what they did in those countries doesn't work in China due to the unwillingness or inability of a lot of Chinese students to take any kind of active role in their own education.
All of which is a long winded way of saying 'please don't make massive generalisations and post them on-line as fact.' It's something of a pet hate of mine.
Edited to add, I personally have no opinion on whether someone should or should not do the CELTA thing. I would think it's useful if you intend to ever work outside China, and may be useful just to give yourself a confidence boost if you've never taught before. I guess people should just do some research and make up their own minds. |
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muffintop
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| doogsville wrote: |
| zactherat wrote: |
CELTA is the best recognized course, not just in China but globally. I'd go for that one every time. What you find, interestingly, is that people who have done it say it's really good, whereas people that haven't done it (but opted to do a weekend online one or something instead) dispute its quality. |
Can you provide sources for this? Almost all of the posts I've read on this and other forums do not question the quality of the CELTA course, but do question it's usefulness as a paper qualification if one intends teaching in China. |
Well， perhaps China is not a good example. Here most schools...you know...the ones that say you need some kind of TEFL cert....would not know the difference between a Trinity/CELTA and some worthless online thing banged out in 30 minutes.
Certainly some schools would. Most would not.
One school owner asked me if I had a TEFL cert. I told him I did but it wasn't a good one. He replied it was no problem...even if I didn't have one they could print one up to show the parents. TIC. |
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zactherat
Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your response, doogsville, your perspective is an interesting one.
| doogsville wrote: |
| Can you provide sources for this? Almost all of the posts I've read on this and other forums do not question the quality of the CELTA course |
From http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=104580
"overloaded", "dusty", "dated", etc.
If you want more, search 'CELTA criticism' or something like that.
| Quote: |
| The general view of those people who don't have CELTA certification seems to be 'why spend all of that time and money on something I don't need to get a job?' |
...which sounds to me like another criticism: redundancy. The truth, of course, is that whilst you may not need it to get a job (any old job - plenty of those in China!), it will open doors (to the B.C., for e.g.) that other certificates will not.
regarding -
| Quote: |
| whether what one would learn doing the CELTA course would prove to be of value when teaching in the rather unique conditions that one finds in the Chinese classroom |
A quick Google search will reveal that 'CELTA' stands for Certificate in English Language Teaching to Adults. Chinese adults generally tend to study in either language schools or in corporate settings. The 'unique China' factors at play here are:
- L1 interference (difficulty distinguishing /l/ and /n/, frequent direct and inappropriate translations of various common Chinese words, resulting in inappropriate usage of English words such as 'so-so' and 'play', etc.)
- Cultural attitudes affect topics suitability and discussion trends (like to talk about food, can be nationalistic/patriotic, automatically dis Japan, etc.)
But these points are actually addressed in detail on the CELTA course, not specifically for China, but there is focus on developing an awareness that such issues will arise in various forms depending on which country you teach in.
I suspect though, that by 'unique conditions', you are referring to large class sizes and static furniture, and poorly considered curricula, in which case you are probably teaching in a university, college or state/private school.
Is the CELTA useful in preparation for these circumstances? Probably not - after all, students in these settings are certainly not as 'adult' as those already in the world of work. Many of them will not really be adults at all, in which case the point about CELTA appropriacy is moot.
Effective teaching within education systems developed and mandated by Chinese cultural and historical traditions (Chinese schools and colleges) would depend far more on experience within those systems that any particular type of qualification or training. Many posters here appear to have an abundance of such experience, and in some cases this appears to inform effective and improving teaching practice. Others seem to be jaded - usually due to a misunderstanding of their role.
However, I repeat now what I stated in a previous thread: faced with a context in which curriculum is developed only as a filler/complementary (novelty?) subject (like oral English in a university), and faced with classes of over 40, seen only once or twice per week, and only over one term (certainly less than a year) I would argue that a teacher will generally not develop skills, but coping strategies. Not so much "how can I optimise learning?", more "how can I fill the time?". Not that the teacher is to blame here - classes need to be smaller, classrooms need to be 'malleable', and learning needs to be explicilty linked to a broader purpose - and this is the role of administrators, not part-time TEFLers. |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| zactherat wrote: |
However, I repeat now what I stated in a previous thread: faced with a context in which curriculum is developed only as a filler/complementary (novelty?) subject (like oral English in a university), and faced with classes of over 40, seen only once or twice per week, and only over one term (certainly less than a year) I would argue that a teacher will generally not develop skills, but coping strategies. Not so much "how can I optimise learning?", more "how can I fill the time?". Not that the teacher is to blame here - classes need to be smaller, classrooms need to be 'malleable', and learning needs to be explicilty linked to a broader purpose - and this is the role of administrators, not part-time TEFLers. |
Very good points. Personally I have no desire to teach outside of China, having married and settled down here for the time being. That being said I don't want to be teaching here forever either, I'm developing other avenues for the future. However I am a teacher, by choice and by nature, so I am determined to find a way that allows my students to learn, however little. I am indeed teaching in a university, and I take a pragmatic view of my role there. My students spend the majority of their time with Chinese teachers, who teach in a totally different way to me. I found at the beginning that while they enjoyed my classes, they struggled with my teaching methods. Asking questions about the material presented was mostly greeted with silence. Having done a little research into traditional Chinese methods of education, I'm now trying to find a style that combines the best of communicative language techniques, but is still recognisable to the students and allows them to learn something. I realise that I'm not going to change the system overnight, or even make a big impact on it, but I don't like the idea that I'm just there for show either. Chipping away at the monolith that is the Chinese way of learning is a great way of developing patience. |
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FreakingTea
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Having done a little research into traditional Chinese methods of education, I'm now trying to find a style that combines the best of communicative language techniques, but is still recognisable to the students and allows them to learn something. I realise that I'm not going to change the system overnight, or even make a big impact on it, but I don't like the idea that I'm just there for show either. Chipping away at the monolith that is the Chinese way of learning is a great way of developing patience. |
That sounds really fascinating. I'm attempting to do something similar, but it's only my first semester. I'd love to hear more details about your approach, maybe in a separate thread.  |
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canrun30
Joined: 03 Oct 2012
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Well-said Doogsville!
So, so glad, as I've said in another thread, that I'm going back to to the "A" part of CELTA next semester-- as in, adults in a training centre.
More hours, more new faces, yes--but lemme tell ya...a lot less agita overall.
Over and done with university life in China. (Yet funny how that particular avenue of employer seems to get most of the comments here...)
Just M.O. |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| canrun30 wrote: |
Over and done with university life in China. (Yet funny how that particular avenue of employer seems to get most of the comments here...)
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I think if you have invested time and money in the CELTA (and want to work in that manner), university work will be a rather poor fit. |
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canrun30
Joined: 03 Oct 2012
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: |
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It's just you and me saying as such it seems, Denim!  |
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