Job Discussion Forums

[nightsintodreams]

Almost all of the direct hire gigs (with school or BOEs) require 'conversational' Japanese, whatever that means.

[fat_chris]

[jmatt]

Wow.

Interesting topic and thread, and thought I'd throw in---though I apologize if it's too long, rambling, and disjointed.

So, like many here, I came to Japan as a true beginner in the language. Spent the first year dealing with the job and figuring out how best to teach in the country and didn't make a huge effort to learn. The second year, I'd moved to Tokyo and tried a bit harder, but mostly focused on exploring the city, going to shows, eating, drinking, etc. I'd learned the basics, but not a whole hell of a lot more. After that year, I left and traveled around Asia for 2 years and that was when my ability seriously increased, strangely enough. I finally had tons of free time to study and put in a serious effort---learning how to read and write, and things really progressed. My Japanese GF (now wife) came out a few times and the time spent just studying made a massive difference.

When I came back to Japan, the difference was really noticeable and I threw myself into studying and since we were living together at that point, we spoke Japanese 80% of the time. After a year, I went back to the US to go on tour with a band I'd previously been in and after that, we decided to move back to the US. In preparation, I started working 7 days a week and we switched the focus to English---my feeling being that if we were to live there, I wanted my GF to be able to operate independently in English---just didn't want her to ever feel like she had to rely on me---and in the US, people don't really care---if you want to deal and have a life outside of a closed community you have to speak the language. So, while I spoke Japanese in social and everyday situations during that time without much difficulty, I didn't really improve much after that.

Fast forward 8 years. While my general casual communication was OK, I didn't progress much being in the US, and now we've been back here a year. The first few months I was fired up, studied like a fiend, and got back to my earlier level, but since I've started working again, I've hit a plateau. While I'm lucky to be working a lot, I spend so much time riding my bike all the *beep* over the city between jobs and have little energy to study. The fact that I'm in an English environment most of the day, then at home talking to my two young children in English isn't an excuse, but doesn't help. The fact that my 5 yr old daughter's Japanese is rapidly outpacing mine is worrying.

Like people here, I have long time friends here who speak very little Japanese. I used to be pretty critical of it, but I now just don't care. Or maybe I just understand, I guess. I mean, how strange is it in some ways to expect people who've been here a few years and have started from rock bottom to be fluent after a few years? having the basics, sure, but..

I'm sure a lot of you know many L2 learners in the US or UK---I used to teach, and work with loads in the in the US who had been in the country for years and still couldn't speak much English---they were too busy working their asses off, and had a L1 community to comfortably sink into when not. How many of you all are gonna say to them "What the *beep*? Learn the language! You're pathetic!" (maybe not so harshly, but...). Or some pithy shit like "Yoda says, there is no can, just do." In the real world, as an adult, with a shitload of priorities, it can be tough. And the canard that "You can just talk to people" is just that, at least in Tokyo. Sure, if you want to practice the basics it's OK to talk to people in the neighborhood in simple interactions, but beyond that, it's not like you can just approach random people and talk to them at length. Totally unrealistic. Best thing is to become a regular at a bunch of bars, which I used to do in my single and child-free days, but really difficult now.

And anyway, fluency is totally relative. Most people who claim to be "fluent" are not---or are just so in certain contexts. I can wax rhapsodic in certain contexts, but am clueless in others, like may people I'd guess.

Anyway, sorry for the rant...

[mitsui]

Gambling? No, no surprise.
It is not haram, I guess, according to the Koran.
Maybe since back in the 7th century, who had thought of it?
I guess gambling has always been around but liquor was a sin.

[mitsui]

From what I read, in the UAE things are getting tougher but you can still make money in the Gulf, provided you are qualified.

[rxk22]

[rxk22]

Jmatt, I think we discussed it in this thread, we aren't looking for people to be fluent. We are looking for people to learn the basics. While many don't even do that.

People like this. are the ones that I really can not understand http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+76279

[1983rm]

I've been here about a year, and have studied on and off. Funnily enough my motivation goes up and down, and I'm at a point where I think I have kind of what I need in the essential sense. Helps if you have a Japanese gf though.

I've had a kind of extended break and am about to knuckle down again. Funny thing was when I was at my first "peak", I was really enjoying learning but found that largely what I learned I was only using in the classes, or if I arranged a language exchange. I've had to slap myself about a bit to get motivated again.

In fact I'd almost say it's a hobby, when it should be pretty much essential to living here.

I do think you need the basics though, and I haven't studied even a bit in a few months until last night but was able to recall most stuff with a bit of prompting. My students help me to keep it fresh before I tell em to talk in English.

[fat_chris]

[Vince]

[rxk22]

[rxk22]

[rxk22]

I am interested in this subject obviously.

A Japantgimes article http://www.japantoday.com/category/opinions/view/why-you-shouldnt-learn-japanese
Guy seems to speak/know Japanese, but has seen tons of people flame out.

I agree with the fact that it is hard to learn Japanese, and sometimes to get near fluent ( I mean actual fluent, like being able to watch TV and speak at speed) is pretty dang hard to do. Also, as with a cake, either do it or don't, don't half @$$ is.

But I disagree on not speaking Japanese to stay 'special'. Not sure why people think this is a GOOD thing?

[1983rm]

Perhaps there is some kind of psychological block ? If you've been here five years you know some Japanese, surely.

Perhaps some people would rather feign total ignorance than show a beginner level after five years ?

You could have a tough experience trying to speak it, get upset and then think 'well, sick of this embarrassment' and up goes a psychological wall. Then you just need any excuse really.

I get it with my students, they're kind of like "this is too hard". Once they've decided speaking English is difficult, it's quite hard to motivate them even if we are studying something that really isn't.

[1983rm]

It's probably symptomatic of coming from cultures in which many people don't have the experience of learning a language, so don't really know the process and haven't experienced the peaks and troughs before.

Perhaps a lot of Native English speakers haven't got much of a clue how to learn a language efficiently