|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
 Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:10 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Amateurish writing with the usual blah-blah-blah excuses.
Warm regards,
fat_chris
Last edited by fat_chris on Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think some people have missed the point of the article.
It's an up-front warning. Learning Japanese is harder than it looks, and may be less rewarding than it looks. Most people who set out to achieve fluency end up wasting much of their limited time and energy. So only attempt it if you're really, really sure that it will be worth it to you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pitarou wrote: |
| I think some people have missed the point of the article. |
…and in some parts perhaps the article misses the point.
| Pitarou wrote: |
| It's an up-front warning. Learning Japanese is harder than it looks, and may be less rewarding than it looks. Most people who set out to achieve fluency end up wasting much of their limited time and energy. So only attempt it if you're really, really sure that it will be worth it to you. |
True this. If one really wishes to set out to achieve true fluency, then they should be aware of what they are in for, what it will take to get there, and then re-assess their commitment. Is one willing to spend the blood, sweat, tears, and yen to get there?
How many of us do get "there"? On a somewhat related note, I do like Jake Adelstein's life story about his connection to Japan and Japanese.
Nonetheless, I still think the Seeroi article has too many base generalizations, hence, my post above.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PO1
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 136
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
It seems odd that this thread popped up around the same time I decided "I'd had enough" and that I was going to give studying an honest try again. I'm not completely awful, but yeah, I could maybe pass JLPT 5 with a bit of luck.
I've never actually had many excuses why I couldn't study. Perhaps I have a lot of interests outside of studying, so I just wanted to enjoy them instead. After being in three or four situations this month where people asked me, "So why don't you speak more Japanese?" I said to myself, "Yeah, this is depressing. I should be able to speak much more than I do." So I broke down last week and decided to get a language exchange partner. I'm also going to start going through my Minna no Nihongo book again.
This will be my first language exchange partner, so I'm not really sure where I should start or what I should focus on as far as Japanese.
I've always wanted to learn more, but I go through stages, which I'm sure many others have gone through. When you feel like you hit a plateau, it can be discouraging that you just can't seem to grasp certain things. Perhaps that is what put me off studying for a while.
I'm glad I found this thread though because it hammers home the fact that I'm making a good decision to regain my initiative to study. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 1983rm wrote: |
It's probably symptomatic of coming from cultures in which many people don't have the experience of learning a language, so don't really know the process and haven't experienced the peaks and troughs before.
Perhaps a lot of Native English speakers haven't got much of a clue how to learn a language efficiently |
I think many find that Japanese is hard, and that the Japanese always tell them how hard Japanese is. Which fuels their want to quit, and just take that excuse and run with it |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PO1 wrote: |
It seems odd that this thread popped up around the same time I decided "I'd had enough" and that I was going to give studying an honest try again. I'm not completely awful, but yeah, I could maybe pass JLPT 5 with a bit of luck.
I've never actually had many excuses why I couldn't study. Perhaps I have a lot of interests outside of studying, so I just wanted to enjoy them instead. After being in three or four situations this month where people asked me, "So why don't you speak more Japanese?" I said to myself, "Yeah, this is depressing. I should be able to speak much more than I do." So I broke down last week and decided to get a language exchange partner. I'm also going to start going through my Minna no Nihongo book again.
This will be my first language exchange partner, so I'm not really sure where I should start or what I should focus on as far as Japanese.
I've always wanted to learn more, but I go through stages, which I'm sure many others have gone through. When you feel like you hit a plateau, it can be discouraging that you just can't seem to grasp certain things. Perhaps that is what put me off studying for a while.
I'm glad I found this thread though because it hammers home the fact that I'm making a good decision to regain my initiative to study. |
Good for you. Hop on the wagon!
It is easy to get discouraged. But, if you find motivation, and go with it, you will be OK
To ALL; I looked on youtube for some 'Intermediate Japanese', and I am pretty shocked at what is considered Intermediate. I don't want to out anyone's page, but _____is____than_____, or simple conjugation such as able to. That isn't intermediate, that is basic Japanese. I guess we set our sights way too low when it comes to Japanese |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pitarou wrote: |
I think some people have missed the point of the article.
It's an up-front warning. Learning Japanese is harder than it looks, and may be less rewarding than it looks. Most people who set out to achieve fluency end up wasting much of their limited time and energy. So only attempt it if you're really, really sure that it will be worth it to you. |
Of course it is hard. I think people that have never studied a foreign language before, just don't have a clue on how hard it is. That coupled with how slow Japanese classes seem to go in the US/Canada, and many are fooled that it is an easy undertaking. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| After being in three or four situations this month where people asked me, "So why don't you speak more Japanese?" I said to myself, "Yeah, this is depressing. I should be able to speak much more than I do." |
When I meet a foreigner for the first time, or even when meeting up with a group of friends, the topic of Japanese language always comes up in conversation at some point.
Maybe I'm just a stuck up *beep*, but if someone says they can't speak any Japanese (unless they've just arrived in the past couple months), I look down on them a bit and see that person as a bit of a joker/ loser/ someone who isn't taking Japan seriously kind of guy.
So not only will some Japanese people look down on you, but also forieigners.
| Quote: |
I've always wanted to learn more, but I go through stages, which I'm sure many others have gone through. When you feel like you hit a plateau, it can be discouraging that you just can't seem to grasp certain things. Perhaps that is what put me off studying for a while.
|
I sometimes find a certain grammar point a little difficult to grasp, this usually results in me frustrating myself enough until I give up and move on to the next point. Then at some point down the line, I'll hear it in conversation, on television or in a video game and it will make perfect sense. A month or so further down the line I'll be talking and it'll just pop out of my mouth without putting any thought into it.
So what I'm trying to say is just move on and keep studying. Everything will come in time.
Anyway PO1, glad you've got back the motivation to study. Ganbare! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| For me, when I hit a plateau, I change what I am doing, or take a break. usually I study grammar for a few weeks. Usually til I hit a wall, and am unable to make anymore headway. Then I switch to vocab, and level that up, until I find I need more grammar to use my vocab. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PO1
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 136
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the encouragement rxk22 and nightsintodreams. I've been in Japan almost four years so I should know a lot more than I do. I've studied off and on, but I agree if I meet someone that has been here about 10 years or so and they can only say the most basic things (or nothing in some cases), it makes me think, "Boy, I hope I don't end up like him/her." I guess I'm looking at the man in the mirror so to speak. Even if I'm not awesome nor can I do linguistic acrobats, I do want to be able to communicate on a basic level. I don't want to be "that guy." I guess some people never come to this realization. Maybe they don't care. That's fine for them, I suppose, but if I'm going to live here, I'm going to at least try to learn. I'm not really a social butterfly by any means, but I would like to be able to communicate more.
I do think people have priorities and reasons that they may not get to studying though. If it's just for laziness, I can't understand that. If they have a busy family life, hectic work schedule, etc. I can understand that a lot more. I think most people teaching English in Japan can afford some time to study if they really, really want to though.
A big problem is living in the "English bubble." Most of my friends here are other foreigners and my work consists of teaching English. I can get by most days without speaking Japanese once if I want, but I've just found that to be pretty depressing as of late. So yeah, I want to change.
My major weakness has been verbs. I believe I know a good deal of common nouns and adjectives, but I feel I've been stunted by my severe lack of basic grammar and having very little knowledge of verbs. My learning has always sort of been sporadic (kanji learning here, grammar learning there) so perhaps one problem has been a lack of focus. Articles kill me too (は、が、の、に、etc.)
Anyway, thanks! Ganbari masu! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rxk22 wrote: |
To ALL; I looked on youtube for some 'Intermediate Japanese', and I am pretty shocked at what is considered Intermediate. I don't want to out anyone's page, but _____is____than_____, or simple conjugation such as able to. That isn't intermediate, that is basic Japanese. I guess we set our sights way too low when it comes to Japanese |
I think that's a 'Japan' thing rather than a 'Japanese' thing. Students here who are considered to be Intermediate in English wouldn't pass for Upper Elementary outside of Japan. They seem to be using their own scale. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| HLJHLJ wrote: |
| Students here who are considered to be Intermediate in English wouldn't pass for Upper Elementary outside of Japan. They seem to be using their own scale. |
I noticed that at my first job teaching. I can remember working with Asians/Hispanics in kitchens back in the US and thinking that their English wasn't so great. At Nova, they would have been upper intermediate! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
One more thing I'd like to mention:
I really got into the 漢字検定 （漢検）while I lived in Japan.
When I was PA (Prefectural Advisor) in the JET Programme in Shizuoka-ken, I passed the word on to the ALTs that they should give these a try. More and more ALTs gave them a go because of my encouragement. It was nice to see.
The next one is coming up in February. Give it a go!
http://www.kanken.or.jp/kanken/
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PO1 wrote: |
| After being in three or four situations this month where people asked me, "So why don't you speak more Japanese?" |
There it is. Not all Japanese think that foreigners can't or shouldn't speak Japanese. Some expect us to speak it, and rightfully so.
As I said in another post, I've been subtlely discouraged from learning much beyond survival Japanese. It can be easy to give into that if you don't enjoy studying, but that's a mistake. First, you're succumbing to a person who wants to keep you in an inferior position. Second, you're cutting yourself off from all the more open people. That second part works two ways: you don't allow yourself access to those people; and those people avoid you because your lack of Japanese is a huge red flag.
| nightsintodreams wrote: |
| When I meet a foreigner for the first time, or even when meeting up with a group of friends, the topic of Japanese language always comes up in conversation at some point. |
Among foreigners, Japanese ability is the most fundamental determinant of respect. The term for that phenomenon is "duhhh."
| 1983rm wrote: |
| Perhaps a lot of Native English speakers haven't got much of a clue how to learn a language efficiently. |
This is a TESL forum. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think that's a 'Japan' thing rather than a 'Japanese' thing. Students here who are considered to be Intermediate in English wouldn't pass for Upper Elementary outside of Japan. They seem to be using their own scale.[/quote]
I think it has bled over to the US and other places imho.
Not to knock this person, it is a decent lesson xxxxhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC0a_pj5dlMxxxxx remove the Xs to link it. But あげる／くれる／もらうis not intermediate level. I see tons of videos like this. I guess the influence from Japan is pretty strong. As really, no one finishing Genki I and II(or the equivalent) should be considered Intermediate. I think II in many colleges is considered Intermediate, and many Japanese majors only finish II, and are considered 'advanced'. Which is silly.
To me, I think the learning of Japanese and the abilities that are garnered from it do not match the perceived levels. It is 'everyone wins a trophy day' level imho.
IMHO Genki II still basics, and everything past that is intermediate. I dunno, sorry for the rant. I just don't like the ultra low expectations that we gaijin have for learning Japanese. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
