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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:09 am Post subject: Re: If I only had a brain |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Manasketa,
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| i find it sad though, that today you need to spend 30-40000$ to prove that you can think... |
It's pretty clear you haven't met many people who have PhDs. in Linguistics.
Regards,
John |
You dont need to spend $30-40,000 to learn how to think but if you want the best jobs you will need the degree and qualifications. Masters and PhD holders teaching in Japanese universities make $50-60,000 a year incomes. At 18 you will make pocket change in China and still make pocket change well into your 30's. Like much less that you would make at Walmart in the US. Starting salaries for teachers with a BA in Japan are $23,000 a year.
Getting the degree opens doors for you, and tells an employer lots about what you can do and what you are capable of. |
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Manasketa
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Forgive me John. My thoughts fly faster than the grammar that encase them.
For future posts, shall I wait and get my phd, or will a good dictionary suffice? 
PaulH: fair point. I'm not sure if it's just a phase people go through, but at this point in my life money is not a big issue. I'm more interested in seeing the world and reading as much as I can about everything...
Like I said, perhaps it's a phase, but if so, I hope I never grow out of it. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Manasketa wrote: |
PaulH: fair point. I'm not sure if it's just a phase people go through, but at this point in my life money is not a big issue. I'm more interested in seeing the world and reading as much as I can about everything...
Like I said, perhaps it's a phase, but if so, I hope I never grow out of it. |
You can see the world and no one is stopping you, however from where we stand an 18 year old would be considered a kid here, as most teachers coming here in are their early-mid 20's with a degree. I just dont see how language schools in China, Korea, Taiwan etc would consider you to be old enough or mature enough to be put in charge of a class. I teach university students who are older than you and no doubt they would not take seriously a teacher who is the same age or younger than them. Your only option perhaps is teaching kids, and that is an art and skill in itself.
I dont teach in China, and the bar is set lower for hiring in terms of qualifications than Japan. Travelling in this part of the world and to support yourself, also costs money. Its pretty hard to travel when you are considered too young to get jobs that will enable you to afford it. China is a big country, and Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai etc are not cheap places to live and get around. Have you checked out the China forums on what its like to live there?
By all means try it if you must, but dont come back in six months and say we didnt warn you about the difficulties you may face. |
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Manasketa
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Of course. I understand that.
I want you to know that, despite my many objections, I do appreciate your constructive imput. From my little experience in these forums, there are an unwarranted amount of malicious posters (or is it simply my hateful character that begs for a beating?? ...). It sometimes feels as if they outnumber the helpful ones. So, I enjoy the relevant conversation all the more.
Thanks
And yes, I did check out the forum for China. It's pretty good.
Since the beginning of this thread, I was able to find two different positions in Western China (one in Sichuan, the other in Xinjiang). I'm trying to make up my mind about which would be the better choice... |
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justcolleen
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 654
Location: Egypt, baby!
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Manasketa wrote: |
| Forgive me John. My thoughts fly faster than the grammar that encase them. |
I think you missed John's sense of humor. It's there. Trust me.
| Manasketa wrote: |
| From my little experience in these forums, there are an unwarranted amount of malicious posters (or is it simply my hateful character that begs for a beating?? ...). It sometimes feels as if they outnumber the helpful ones. |
I suspect that has a lot to do with the anonymity of the internet. Folks are a whole lot braver in cyberspace than they are anywhere else.
| Manasketa wrote: |
| Since the beginning of this thread, I was able to find two different positions in Western China (one in Sichuan, the other in Xinjiang). I'm trying to make up my mind about which would be the better choice... |
That was quick. I'm thinking too quick. Be careful.
Colleen |
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lajzar
Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Location: Saitama-ken, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry that you feel I was making pseudo-insults. I was simply trying to warn you of the reality. Far too many people wander into EFL with stars in their eyes, and then get horribly burned from the experience. It is not pleasant to watch, and I'd rather not see it happen to someone with such high hopes.
Would you rather we tell you how easy it is and that you can make 6-figure salaries (dollar, not monopoly money) and live the life of Riley? I could, and perhaps some do - I don't know everyone in the field. But it would be doing you a disservice to say that.
For the record, I personally believe a degree has little value in terms of educational value, but a huge amount of value in terms of what society expects a professional employee to have. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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To add to lazjars comments:
you mentioned about negative postings and glass-half-empty type attitudes. There are a lot of people come to asian countries think that people will roll out the welcome mat because they are white and speak English. What they find after a while is they end up in positions as human tape-recorders, dancing bears trotted out in front of sttudents (especially in countries like China, which by the way, is a Communist-run country) and soon find they are in a low-paying unglamorous, hard working rut. This is not to say that all positions are like that, but I know in Japan at least, you get a lot of newly graduated newbies with too much time on their hands and never had a real job in their lives. They have no one to clean up after them and no one to wipe their bottoms for them and they realise that teaching english is WORK, and not one long vacation. You will be expected to pay your airfare, feed and clothe yourself, find accomodation, perhaps get some training, and pay for your daily expenses. This is in a foreign country where you dont even speak the language. Great adventure that it is its not much fun when if you dont have a job or money coming in, you dont eat, or your daily pay is about $30 a day.
This is not to put you off and Im sure you will do what ever you want regardless, but in China you will be trotted out like a performing seal for the masses, probably paid a living wage and work long hours. Someone without a degree is at the bottom of the income and economic totem pole and your position will be just about that of school janitor. In japan you can not even get jobs without a degree and those that are available pay $10 an hour part time.
As the above poster mentioned, people here are drawn to the exotic, the language the women, the food what have you, but the reality is that in many cases low qualified low skilled English teachers are like the equivalent of Chinese coolies who went abroad a hundred years ago to make a quick buck. The exodus is now in the other direction.
Before you buy your ticket, do your research, find out about salaries, living conditions and lifestyle before you leave. A lot of these people on this board are bitter and negative for a reason, and my guess its because they have not risen about the slave-labor wages that entry-level teachers make in these countries, including Japan. |
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gugelhupf
Joined: 24 Jan 2004
Posts: 575
Location: Jabotabek
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Manasketa wrote: |
i find it sad though, that today you need to spend 30-40000$ to prove that you can think... |
It has been my own experience that higher education isn't some kind of hurdle you have to overcome in order to prove that you can think, but rather it provides training in techniques that help you to think more effectively. |
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anthyp
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 1320
Location: Chicago, IL USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think something PAULH said bears repeating:
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| What they find after a while is they end up in positions as human tape-recorders, dancing bears trotted out in front of students [...] and soon find they are in a low-paying unglamorous, hard working rut. |
Which I think applies especially to someone in your position.
These schools that are willing to hire you can't possibly take your teaching ability seriously. Will you be content to play the "dancing monkey" role, if it comes to that? Some "teachers" have no problem with that - will you?
Also, keep in mind that, whatever paying positions you've found, they can't be be legal ones. You can't work in the People's Republic without a work Visa, and you can't get that unless you are qualified as a Foreign Expert or Teacher, which, as you already know, you are not.
So, either you school will have to lie to get you your papers, or they won't bother at all, and you'll have to work without them.
Those volunteer positions are sounding more and more attractive now, aren't they?
And you know we are not being hard on you merely for the sake of being hard, but this is something you need to think about carefully. I believe anyone serious about teaching would find the types of positions available to you unsatisfactory. |
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Manasketa
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Everything you guys are saying is fair. I realise that the negative comments are just to help, but I can't help but take a swing at some of you sometimes when I detect sarcasm bordering insult, whether it be real or not.
Because we're not face to face, it's so easy to take something the wrong way. It's so easy to pick a fight in internet forums. That's why I do my best to avoid them in normal circumstances.
I'll trust your judgement as far as possible (the degree is still not feasible though). You have experience, while I do not. After all, isn't that why I posted here?
I see what you mean about the two jobs though. They did present themselves pretty quickly. The one is with Wancheng International in Sichuan, who are apparently (according to posters) a good bunch of people, while the other is in Urumqi and is a volunteer position. Both provide roundtrip airfare at the end of the contract and free accomodation near the school. Hours are 25/week for one, 15/w for the other. 40-50 kids in the class for both.
Am I blind to some crucial detail, being new to this? Or am I just lucky?
----
Just curious: why would the volunteer positions suddenly seem nice? Wouldn't they be just as bad as the illegal / dancing-monkey positions?  |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Manasketa wrote: |
Everything you guys are saying is fair. I realise that the negative comments are just to help, but I can't help but take a swing at some of you sometimes when I detect sarcasm bordering insult, whether it be real or not.
Im not being negative, im being realistic. i have been teaching in Japan for 17 years have a Masters degree and see people come over with blinkers on or an unrealistic attitude of what employers expect or what they are qualified to do. unqualiifed inexperiecnced people with a BA come to Japan on JET program and work for NOVa and get burnt big time as they are not prepared for conditions on the ground, have a rosy image of what teaching is all about or they dont listen to the voice of experience
We are just trying to save you some major disappointment becuase you choose to ignore reality.
Because we're not face to face, it's so easy to take something the wrong way. It's so easy to pick a fight in internet forums. That's why I do my best to avoid them in normal circumstances.
I'll trust your judgement as far as possible (the degree is still not feasible though). You have experience, while I do not. After all, isn't that why I posted here?
I see what you mean about the two jobs though. They did present themselves pretty quickly. The one is with Wancheng International in Sichuan, who are apparently (according to posters) a good bunch of people, while the other is in Urumqi and is a volunteer position. Both provide roundtrip airfare at the end of the contract and free accomodation near the school. Hours are 25/week for one, 15/w for the other. 40-50 kids in the class for both.
Am I blind to some crucial detail, being new to this? Or am I just lucky?
Im not in China, but you would have to ask why with all the foreigners in China they have to recruit overseas. You also dont know what the turnover of teachers is and how long they stay there. regular postings of the same ad is a big red flag that they have trouble holding teachers. Are you able to email teachers working at the schools? Any school that does not let you contact teachers I would be wary of.
Are the 25 hours working hours or teaching hours? In japan actual contact time with students is 26 hours but hours on the job is closer to 40 hours a week or 8 hours a day. demo lessons, breaks, admin, paperwork is not considered teaching hours. Big difference.
If you have 40-50 10 year olds in a class that is too much. It is impossible to teach communication and conversation lessons with such large numbers. anything less that 20 is a good number. With kids, less is more and it depends on the age. Also do you have any idea how to teach kids. or will you just teach them songs and games?
Would you know how to control a bunch of kids? to my knowledge Chinese kids are self indulgent, spoilt rotten becuase of the one-child policy in China and if they see you are weak or not in control they will run rings around you.
I might also add in general foreign teachers in those countries have very little disciplining power- if they are naughty or dont do as you expect you can not discipline or punish them. that is the job of the chinese teacher. If he is not on your side (not to mention the parents) . Foreign teachers are like a valuable doll to be brought out once in a while and you may have trouble controlling a large class. i teach classes of forty, they are college age and its no easy task.
With the airfare its only paid for if you complete your contract after a year. What will you do if you find its not to your liking and you want to quit? You will have to pay your own way out of there and relocation expenses.
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Just curious: why would the volunteer positions suddenly seem nice? Wouldn't they be just as bad as the illegal / dancing-monkey positions? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Manasketa wrote: |
Just curious: why would the volunteer positions suddenly seem nice? Wouldn't they be just as bad as the illegal / dancing-monkey positions? |
They are nice because they dont have to pay you. Free labor from a foreigner. Believe it or not, teaching is hard work (I teach 12 college classes a week) and you get physically tired. i worked at conversation schools in Japan, and taught 6-7 back to back classes a day. Maybe one day or half a day of free teaching is fine. But when they expect you to teach 30-40 kids for free in return for accomodation and food it becomes indentured labor. You are thousands of miles from home, maybe no email or telephone nearby (not even english language TV) you dont know anyone and if you are in the backblocks or a country area it may be hard for you to extract yourself out of there. What do you do if you want to leave and there are no other schools around? Who controls your visa and can you work for other employers on the same visa? In Japan you own your own visa but in Taiwan and Korea the employer controls your visa and if you quit you can be deported. I expect teaching in China would be no different. these are questions you have to ask yourself (and your employer, because once you commit to something it may be very hard to extract yourself once you are there. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Manasketa wrote: |
I see what you mean about the two jobs though. They did present themselves pretty quickly. The one is with Wancheng International in Sichuan, who are apparently (according to posters) a good bunch of people, while the other is in Urumqi and is a volunteer position. Both provide roundtrip airfare at the end of the contract and free accomodation near the school. Hours are 25/week for one, 15/w for the other. 40-50 kids in the class for both.
Am I blind to some crucial detail, being new to this? Or am I just lucky?
-- |
here are some questions you might want to ask the employer
is there any bond/key money in order to rent apartments?
Are you required to live with or rent from your employer?
Are the apartments shared or single, and is it just a room above the school?
What is the monthly/weekly rent?
What is the condition of the apartments?
What are the actual teaching hours vs the actual work hours i.e. your clock-in clock-out hours?
What kind of teacher training, if any, do you receive?
Do you get a written contract in English?
What is the monthly salary in local currency, in $US and how does it compare with other schools in the area (may pay for you to find this out by yourself)
What are the conditions for quitting/leaving a job (e.g. giving notice) and are there any penalties for early withdrawal from your contract?
What happens to your apartment/ visa when you leave your job?
Who will you actually be teaching?
When is return airfare paid for/provided?
What are the days off and are any holidays provided?
What happens about personal and health insurance i.e. you get sick and cant work?
What is the average length of service of teachers working there? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Posting from the Job Information Journal
Once again, someone (Gerry Hall this time, "Mike" previously, many others on various occasions) clamours publicly that TEFLers are "entitled" (note the word: "entitled") to "8000 RMB minimum for 16 weekly lessons of less than one hour".
Let me categorically state: this is NONSENSE!
Even if Gerry qualifies such teachers as having a "BA". It is preposterous to say we are "entitled" to such a high salary, full stop.
You may get it, or you may get half of it. It all depends on imponderables beyond our influence. Menawhile, the minimum has been set at RMB 2200 - since last century!
The average most TEFlers make at public schools is maybe RMB 4000, for 12 to 15 periods a week; weekends off and several weeks of paid holidays, though summer holidays (July and August) are usually unpaid (you can try your luck in a summer camp).
Also, be advised that if you want to be paid royally, your students deserve a royal service from you. What have you got to offer?
Most of us are not used as TEACHERS; we are tolerated, used as conversation practitioners, for whom there is very little practical use, what with the students' low proficiency, poor comprheension, zero acculturation to English or Western culture, and the lousy (mnost of times) textbooks.
Most of you entertain erroneous notions of what teaching in a foreign country means. If you don't have good to excellent language skills, grammar, familiarity with English literature, psychology, language acquisition theory NOR EVEN SPEAK A SECOND TONGUE YOURSELF, then you don't really have a RIGHT to such a fancifully high pay; note that Chinese teachers make do with half of the slary claimed is ours...
My take is that you are entitled to good pay if you can singlehandedly lead Chinese speakers to a good command of your tongue. Can you do that? How would you define "good command"?
Would you achieve this without translation? Would you be able to design suitable courses for your students?
The pitfalls for successful teachers in China are far more numerous than posters like Gerry and "Mike" make you aware of.
Don't raise your greedy expectations too high - the price you may have to pay may be too high for most of you!
Someone who has been teaching in China for ten years!
Roger
[email protected]
Posted: May 25, 2004 |
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