Job Discussion Forums

[Aelric]

I've been doing EFL for about 5 years now. I'm looking into new countries and China is one. Through my old recruiters at footprints, I've hear a rather attractive offer, but I have some misgivings about it. Maybe you guys could let me know how it sounds and how their rep is.

First of all, I don't know the companies name. I forgot to ask the guy at Footprints and am waiting for a reply email about that. Maybe you guys could help identify who it is too.

So, here is the stats on the offer:

16000rmb/month
30 teaching hours/wk, 5 office hours, Weds-Sun
choice of a few cities: Nanjing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Hangzhou or Foshan
7000rmb yearly bonus
No housing stipend, no airfare
Adult classes only
Minimum two years EFL required

Now, the good:

That pay, in Nanjing, seems mighty fine. Something I could always have a little something to put in the bank at the end of the month. I'm fairly mellowed out on the hard drinking (though I'll still go out sometimes) and travel of expat culture and looking to settle in an grind out some savings, so it seems like a good match.

The hours seem crummy, but I actually worked more in Korea and Thailand if you include 'stare at the screen with nothing to do but they won't let you leave' office hours.

Biggest perk is that it's Adults. I prefer teaching advanced grammar and conversation, or even when teaching super basic stuff, I prefer the attention an adult is willing to give over a kid. The only other work I see around this pay in my initial searches is Disney English, and I don't think I can be an English clown for kindergarteners every day, no matter how good the pay or perks.

Also, that they want folks that already have experience is a good sign, as is a relationship with Footprints. Footprints treated me right getting me into Korea and I'm hoping they will do the same in China.

Now, the misgivings: These guys hire year round. That suggests high turnover to me, which in turn suggests unhappy teachers.

Also, they have locations in 5 or so cities. The big chains tend to have bad reps, like Disney English and Nova over in Japan, especially when it comes to company culture. Don't bow low enough, forget to bring a gift to your boss, don't go out drinking with co-workers and run the risk of getting canned. I may be paranoid, but I've heard so many horror stories about China and contracts disappearing due to stupid stuff like that.

Internet is a factor too. I'm temped to take a Shanghai job for the slightly faster internet alone. VPNs and Proxies slow things down a lot when used in the US, I can't imaging the already super slow speeds in China when I'm trying to skype or sneak a peek at facebook or check a streaming video.

Finally, working hours. I've heard that companies like this will grind you into dust with unpaid overtime or demand extra deskwarming office hours until you have no free time left. I've also hear they will request you come in on days off for meetings in Mandarin and make you sit around for hours for nothing. Again, I don't know if THIS company would do that, but I've heard it's common.

Anyway, can anyone ID this company from the stats I've given. Does it sound alright? Are my misgivings unfounded and paranoid, or should I not even consider this? If footprints gets back to me tomorrow, I'll post the company name and you guys can tell me their rep.

[jg]

Sounds like a Wall Street-ish place. Those aren't bad, and you've been doing this long enough to know what adult business English entails.

SH and Nanjing should have no difference in internet speed or access. Nanjing would be preferable to SH for me. Other than western entertainment options, Nanjing is on par with SH. It has a nice, green downtown, is cheaper, and from my (admittedly brief) visits, the city has a university-town feel to it. It feels like a former seat of power and culture should.

If they already cop to 30 hours of teaching, I can't imagine them foisting a bunch of mandatory overtime on you. Often it's the places that offer amazingly low hours for a good salary that do that sort of thing. And 16,000 is a nice salary, but for tier one and two cities, that's kind of standard these days. A lot of people work for less, but they have fewer hours too, or they just involve singing and dancing, not actual teaching.

Good luck!

[Toast]

Yep - probably Wall Street.

I'd also pick the Nanjing option. Be aware you'll lose 3,000+ or so in tax to start, and assuming you took the Shangers gig you'd lose at *least* 3-4,000 more in rent (you can halve this figure in Nanjing), and likely have to live a million miles commute away. Takes you down below 10,000 a month for a serious number of teaching and travel hours, plus god knows how much mandatory office time. The Wall Street branch in Jinmao tower in Lujiazui seems to always be hiring, but rents anywhere near that area would be astronomical.

Places like that tend to have a churn and burn attitude toward teachers, hence the turnover...absolutely clarify what extras they'll want you putting in. Definitely confirm you can get two days off a week or they might start sneaking in the occasional extra morning class onto you. English corners, or Salon classes or whatever crap they call them seem to just be another way to get you to teach an extra class under the guise of it not really being a class.

Talk to more than one foreign teacher currently working there. The big chains like W.S have their brown noser laowai staff, and even their own recruiters who will bend the truth just as badly as their Chinese masters.

I was in Nanjing a couple of days ago and it's a nice enough city. Numerous mountains and parks nearby. Relatively clean and modern, the subways and buses seem pretty comprehensive and reliable. A handful of decent expat bars, a Carls Jr. and as JG said a kind of younger university town feel. The G and D trains will get you to Shanghai in just over an hour if need be.

Shanghai on the other hand feels a lot more international and cosmopolitan. NJ still gets loads of construction and factory workers in from rural Jiangsu and Anhui who can be kind of prole-ish. Loads of staring, spitting, farting public pissing etc - but if you've been in Korea you're likely used to that anyhow.

(Interesting side note - the Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge is the top suicide location in the world)

[ymmv]

FWIW, the tax on 16,000 RMB will be 1,795 RMB wherever you go.

[Toast]

[Spyro]

Hmm I can't comment on the Nanjing vs. Shanghai situation. Nevertheless, this is my take on your contract

16,000 is a nice salary but considering the hours you are putting in (with no air reimbursement, no accommodation), you are looking at roughly 133 rmb/hour. Even less when you factor in office hours (although I didn't factor in your bonus, because it's tiny). I personally think you could do much better than that considering your experience.

The minimum would be 150rmb/hour for me and this is coming from a person in a way cheaper city than Nanjing. Furthermore, I would try to skip recruiting agents such as footprint if possible. They take a sizable cut out of your salary and to be honest, the type of English schools you are looking at are really easy to apply to by yourself.

All in all, I would keep looking for a better package. I've known friends with only 6 month ESL experience (much less 5 years) get contracts similar to yours but for only 20 teaching hours.

[godmachine12]

First, don't worry about Internet speed. In Nanjing, you can get 20MB down with around 2MB up with no contract. I pay 186RMB per month for this. You can get 100MB, but it requires a two-year contract for some reason. You will notice a significant slowdown with your VPN for sights outside of China, but when downloading torrents or using Skype, you won't notice any difference. Second, somebody mentioned rent being half what it is in Shangai and while that might be true, you aren't going to find anything worth living in for less than 3000RMB in the centre. On the outskirts, yes, but you won't be working there if this is a Wall Street gig. Third, I'd be more concerned about air quality than anything else. It's diabolical in Nanjing at the moment and has been for months. Finally, I'd ditch the recruiters and just apply directly. All of the major chain schools have websites and are accustomed to hiring from abroad. You won't net 16,000RMB for sure, but at least if you go it alone you'll know what you'll be left with at the end of the month.

In my opinion, you'll be sick very quickly of thirty contact hours. You'll have minimal holidays as well and when you do get them, everybody else will be travelling as well. Get ready for that. Keep looking. The market is booming in Nanjing at the moment. There are schools everywhere and they all need teachers. Don't jump at this offer just because it's from Footprints. Best of luck to you.

[Aelric]

Well, I know form experience that footprints doesn't take a chunk out of my monthly, they get commissions from the schools they have contact with. Plenty of you will say I'm wrong, I know, but I've used them for years in Korea and it was fine. I still took away over a grand in raw savings per month, lived in a livable apartment and went out every weekend with friends. Even if they do take a cut, it's before that figure, not after. I never got anything less than my stated salary every month, no deductions, so the 16000RMB would actually be 16000RMB just like my 2.1 million Won was 2.1 million won in Korea each month. I wouldn't trust any other recruiter, but I already have history with them. The bonus is shit, I know, and no airfare sucks, but then again, I've found airfare from LA to Nanjing for only $550 one way, $900 round trip, so I don't think it's the worst expense nor the best benefit to have paid.

Secondly, I'm willing to live in a shit hole. In Thailand, people could not believe what I was willing to live in. My only requirements are A. western toilet b. internet connection and c. no pests like rats or roaches. Ants are livable (they own Thailand, the humans just rent). Small is fine, dirty is...not preferred but not anything I'm not used to.

Now, as far as direct hires, well, all I can see is around the 10000-12000 range and then I still need rent and airfare for most. The business might be 'booming' in Nanjing, but that is something I can scope once I'm there. The hours DO worry me, though. They 'guarantee' 6 contact hours per day, but that is already a lot and I expect they will grind me further. Korea was 24 hours per week with 16 office hours, which was doable, but Thailand was only 3 hours a day and most schools didn't care if I stuck around in the office as long as I didn't miss a meeting or anything. They also paid utter shit, so I think I'm ready to do the work for the higher pay. I suspect I'd be working even harder if I stayed in the states and took a waiter job, so there is that. Still, these schools are notorious for overworking you, in multiple countries.

There is another offer, but it's the same that all of us don't want. Disney English in Shanghai, 18000 with a 4000 rent stipend and airfare as a low level manager, but I hate preschool classes. Singing and dancing is how kids learn, I get that, god bless those that do it, but it's not my thing. Adults have been a pleasure to teach, however, on all levels.

Pollution seems unavoidable. I mean, where has clean air in China that also pays nearly enough to make my savings goals? I know there are 'rural' positions, but if I only make 7000 like some Guilin positions I've seen doesn't seem worth it, nor does the lower cost of living make up for the drop in pay.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who chimed in, and hey, for all this talk of direct hires and better deals, toss me your schools contact info if you think I could get a better position there. I'm more than happy to make more contacts.