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[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

What's their L1?


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johntpartee]

[Sashadroogie]

I actually think there is a lot of sense in that 'nugget'.

There should be nothing too challenging for learners if they already know verb forms. It is not as if reported speech in English uses specific forms just for that purpose - as other languages do. Finicky details like word order in reported questions take a little while to produce accurately. But compared to other areas, like articles, there is nothing that should be too much of a challenge.

I blame any difficulties on teacher-induced errors : )

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

"There should be nothing too challenging for learners if they already know verb forms."

By knowing verb forms, do you mean just how to make them (meaning to write/say them) or when to use them, too?

if learners can know all the verb forms that well, they may already have the edge over some/many ESL/EFL teachers.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Yes, you are right there. The form of a verb or word is how it is produced, orally or in writing. The concept is the idea behind the firm, which governs the when of its use. You already know this, of course, but my point is that if learners have a good handle on this, then reported speech is not much more of a challenge. The form is the same. So is the concept, in essence.

The same thing goes for conditionals, which is another area of mystification. In fact, the verb form and underlying concept for reported speech, conditionals, subjunctive mood, polite questions/offers is all the same. The same principle applies : distance = a past form. Whether that is temporal distance, social distance or probability distance is unimportant - a past form will be used to express this notion.

Sadly John, you may be right about learners having the edge over some/many EFL teachers. But who is really surprised by that?


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[Cool Teacher]

[Cool Teacher]

[Sashadroogie]

Quite right!

Present Simple is used to describe current situations, and those in the past, the future. Not really defined by time, as such, but by how we interpret the situations in terms of truth. In fact, questions words like 'when?' would usually be absurd in relation to a Present Simple statement.

E.g. "I am Russian." "When?"

"Children love chocolate" "When?"

This, as a concept, is what some learners may have problems with. Though European language speakers usually have a similar principle in their L1, even if they don't always realise it. They may have difficulties, but it still remains worth working on, as it is the key that unlocks all the other 'hard' structures.

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

When I wrote "when to use them," I did not, of course, mean this:

"E.g. "I am Russian." "When?"

I meant what times the tense describes. As pointed out, English tenses are not so easily classified. While it can be said that the present simple is often used to indicate a usual action, it can also be used (with non-progressive verbs) to describe a present action, and, as Cool Teacher pointed out, it can even be used to describe a past action - or a future action.

So, I think that learners' knowing their verb forms and when to use them, having "a good handle on this," assumes that they would have to have a considerably advanced mastery of English to begin with.

Now, I teach high-level students, and there are few that have such a mastery, a fact that doesn't seem too surprising when I read/hear native-speakers often making tense mistakes, as well.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

I know that is not what you meant. I was not making any reference to your previous posts.

As for your high level students, if they have not good fairly accurate control of the verb system in English, I would question the claim that they were indeed high level. B2? C1? And I'd also question why they were being taught reported speech if they are not familiar enough with verb forms to begin with.


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

I envy you your students. I've been teaching EFL/ESL for over 35 years now, often at high (Advanced) levels, but I can't say I've had too many students who have had a mastery of English tenses (especially the Present Perfect) that your students must possess.

Actually, in those 35 years, I haven't come across too many EFL/ESL teachers that have had such a mastery.

Khorosho, droogie,

John

[Cool Teacher]

My dear droogs!

What would Chomsky say abot the native speakers without a matery of the Englsih verb tenses? Poppycock, he may say in my imaginary story, becase he says all native speakers have the universal grammar and will learn the language.

Double Plus

Cool Teacher!

[johnslat]

Dear Cool Teacher,

It would seem we live in different universes. If you - or Chomsky - ever turn on a TV and listen to, say, a news show, I'll be very surprised if you don't hear any tense mistakes.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Without getting too bogged down in error analysis of native speakers, I'd just like to say that it doesn't require such high-level 'mastery' (whatever you mean by that vague term) to deal with English verbs in reported speech. My students are not at all remarkable in being able to manage fairly well with the verb system and reported speech, from about B1/B2 upwards. Certainly, they still produce errors, but they are not bemused by the whole notion of reported speech. I agree with the 'nugget' - "There is nothing difficult about tense in reported speech in English".

I must say, I am surprised that Advanced learners, as in C1, would still be having major problems with any of this. Surely not?


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

I'm not talking about only reported speech but about this:

" . . . learners' knowing their verb forms and when to use them, having 'a good handle on this,' "

Regards,
John