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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Using "later" to mean "from now", e.g., "several days later", and "before" for "ago".
Not really cliches, but still ubiquitous. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Can't really blame the students for this 'taught interlanguage' by Chinese profs and teachers who in turn have been too busy 'studying' English to learn it. If such instructors want to know how to express something in English, they look it up and pay attention to the denotation only. ELT academics still haven't caught onto this. The same thing works in reverse--Chinese courseware writers are not much different than newby TEFLers with limited appreciation of the complexity of the language or how to teach it. Even Pimmsleur teaches a sort of 'Engwen' in ignorance of the fact Chinese doesn't rely on tenses. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| Can't really blame the students for this 'taught interlanguage' by Chinese profs and teachers who in turn have been too busy 'studying' English to learn it. If such instructors want to know how to express something in English, they look it up and pay attention to the denotation only. |
This.
It's Sunday morning and I am in my office. Across the hall is the English class for continuing education students. I always feel so bad for them when I walk by their class because it's all about learning about English, but not really learning English.
It's always the same--the teacher lecturing them in Chinese about English, explaining the meanings of phrases and dissecting the grammar. That's fine and dandy if that is part of the class but that is what the complete class is--all 2+ hours of it. I feel bad for these students because given half a chance, they could probably speak English decently.
Well, today I was listening to the Chinese lecture about English and there it was, as if on cue--as soon as I walked by it popped out…
every coin has two sides
…and then the teacher proceeded to explain the use of it.
…as if this is an absolutely essential thing that the students must know.
SIGH.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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LarssonCrew
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:00 am Post subject: |
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The worst thing with 'as everyone knows' is they use it for obscure Chinese things that only Chinese would know.
Then they use it for things like IELTS speaking:
'My favourite actor is Sum Ting Wong, as everyone knows he was in the Chinese move 'movie name', and is very handsome. His name is the same as the king from the 'insert time period here.' who 'insert bullshit propaganda here.'
Then I'm open mouthed because I didn't know any of those things, and checking with other foreigners, they have no clue. YET, these people don't know who David Beckham is, or who the Queen is. |
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muffintop
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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There is only one Queen?
Oh......
Perhaps some students are as ignorant as some teachers. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| ....and so on. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| "Besides + comma" drives me nuts as it is almost always used incorrectly. In fact, "word + comma" is used an awful lot to start paragraphs by students here. It is not always wrong, and is common enough in written English. But it is often applied incorrectly here, and someone seems to be telling them this is the only way to start paragraphs. |
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Lack
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:10 am Post subject: |
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"What a pity."
Using "beautiful" and/or "delicious" to describe...anything.
The word "clever."
They have a very limited pool of vocabulary, that is for some reason emphasized by Chinese teachers, and do not feel the need to add many words that Westerners actually use. Or to use words the way Westerners actually use them. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| They have a very limited pool of vocabulary |
Linked to a limited genetic pool.... |
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ymmv
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 387
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Lack wrote: |
....
Using "beautiful" and/or "delicious" to describe...anything.
The word "clever."
They have a very limited pool of vocabulary, that is for some reason emphasized by Chinese teachers, and do not feel the need to add many words that Westerners actually use. Or to use words the way Westerners actually use them. |
There's a quick, simple cure for this - a Thesaurus. Ah, but Chinese students won't know what that is? Right! But they all use (pirated) copies of Microsoft Office/Word.
The cure: Teach them the SHIFT+F7 (Thesaurus) function in Word! Over the years I've been teaching this, only one single student ever said, "I know that." Thousands of others have been, like "Wahhh!!! Fantastic!!!"
I rarely see "beautiful", "famous", "delicious", etc. in their writing now.
BONUS: They tell me they like to play with it in their dorms, especially when a CET or TEM test is coming up. Type in a word>SHIFT+F7>new vocab (for them).
Caveat emptor: The Chinese language version of Word has the function, but it needs to be separately installed. Most language students using Chinese Word already installed the English packs so they should be good to go. If you're using a classroom computer to show the feature, my hit-rate has been about 50%. Usually the classroom computers used for English classes will have it. If it's a random classroom, it may not.
in four words: your mileage my vary.
in an acronym: YMMV
ymmv |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
A lot of these are carryovers from their Chinese oral English classes. The idiotic phrases are used to buy time for them to gather their words together. |
You realize that everyone does this to some extent, right? This is the purpose of hesitators like 'uh' or 'umm' as well as filler phrases like 'you know?'. |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ymmv wrote: |
There's a quick, simple cure for this - a Thesaurus. Ah, but Chinese students won't know what that is? Right! But they all use (pirated) copies of Microsoft Office/Word. |
Interesting advice, but thesauruses are basically useless unless the person is already familiar with some of the synonyms for the word and simply can't recall them. And they need to understand these synonyms very well, including their denotation, common collocations, register, and commonness. Using a thesaurus to plug in 'prepossessing' for 'interesting' isn't really going to do anything but make it obvious they used a thesaurus. |
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ymmv
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 387
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
Interesting advice, but thesauruses are basically useless unless the person is already familiar with some of the synonyms for the word and simply can't recall them. And they need to understand these synonyms very well, including their denotation, common collocations, register, and commonness. Using a thesaurus to plug in 'prepossessing' for 'interesting' isn't really going to do anything but make it obvious they used a thesaurus. |
Of course. So go ahead and explain it all to them. (Try to avoid words like collocation, denotation, register and discourse with your class unless you are using the Chinese terms.)
Or just give the SHIFT+F7 mention a try. Though they never heard of the English term Thesaurus (it's known as "word list" in Chinese), they're pretty quick to figure it out ONCE they have "discovered" the SHIFT+F7 function thanks to you, the teacher. They'll figure it out quick enough. |
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cps82856
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
| Interesting advice, but thesauruses are basically useless unless the person is already familiar with some of the synonyms for the word and simply can't recall them. And they need to understand these synonyms very well, including their denotation, common collocations, register, and commonness. Using a thesaurus to plug in 'prepossessing' for 'interesting' isn't really going to do anything but make it obvious they used a thesaurus. |
So let me get this straight. We want our non-native English-speaking students to expand the English vocabulary they use in (mostly) writing. We have two tools available which will help them do that. But showing our students how to use those tools and encouraging them to do so is “basically useless” when their vocabulary isn't large enough. And if we want them to start using these tools we have to teach them concepts that a native speaker would look at you in mouth-agape wonder if you asked them about. And it ends up being a waste of time because they might use these tools imprecisely.
Wow. Just wow.
| Quote: |
| “BONUS: They tell me they like to play with it in their dorms... .” |
(Emphasis added).
Anything that gets my students to explore and spontaneously use English in a way that they find interesting and useful is okay in my book (uncolored pages and all). Giving them a divorce from the translating app on their smartphone is an added benefit. I think it's a great idea and I'm looking forward to showing it to them. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:18 am Post subject: |
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that's awesome! they can use a thesaurus!
you think they're gonna pick the appropriate word?
of course not! they're gonna select the longest word
or phrase, cause it looks more educateder.
once upon a time, your students may have written:
"i want to speak with foreigners."
but no more! now they have a new tool! now they write:
"myself covet en route for verbalize in the midst of aliens." |
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