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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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 Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure many of you old timers know what Islam says about the Books, but let me say it here again for everybody's knowledge.
Islam says the Books are all words of Allah (God). According to Islam, every race/nation/group of people received a prophet or a messenger at some point in time. Messengers received a new book from Allah for their (the messenger's) people. Prophets did not bring new a Book, they just came to reiterate the message of the previous messenger in cases where the people had deviated from the right path. Some well known messengers and prophets are Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David, John, Mohammed, Zachary, Joseph, etc. You can google for more. Some received a new book, some did not.
Islam says the Torah was the book given to Moses for his people. Moses did not write it, Allah did, as in, it was Allah's words. Of course it was written down by men's hands, but the words were from God, delivered straight to Moses. Similarly, the "Injeel" was the book given to the messenger Jesus, again, the words were from God, not from any human. Islam also says those 2 books (and all previous ones) were corrupted/altered by humans and that people disobeyed their messengers and prophets, hence the need for a new messenger or a prophet every so often. Mohammed is the last messenger, and the book given to him, the Quran, will never be corrupted by humans.
Islam also says that previous messengers brought God's message only for their own people. For example, if Allah sent a messenger with a book to some people in South America several thousand years ago, that message was only for those people, and people living in Europe at that time were not required to believe in it, as they must have received their own messenger. But, the Quran differs from the previous books in that respect, as it is for all mankind, till the Last Day, hence, the only way to go to Heaven is to accept Islam. Any other religion will be rejected, whether a divine one (as all previous ones have been currupted) or a man-made one.
Not trying to argue here, just stating facts (according to Islam), and don't ask me if I believe all that or not!
Lets try not to argue which religion is the correct one, otherwise this will get locked with the quickness!  |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Goodness what a lot to get thru. Can we now talk about the pressing issues that bind us all, like sorcerers, jinns and atheists. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Dear trapezius,
After all, how relevant would knowing at least something about Islam be to people teaching EFL in Saudi?
Regards,
John |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Listing a Religion on Forms |
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| CanukBook wrote: |
[...]DON'T tell anyone here that you are Buddhist. Why? Because Christians and Jews are considered "People of the Book" since the Quran, Bible and Torah share the first five books, which were written by Moses, I believe. "Religion" or not, Buddhism is non-theistic, and my understanding is that Islam considers Buddhists to be atheists.
If any Saudi, student or otherwise, tries to engage you in conversation about "religion" or "belief," simply tell them, politely, that you are not allowed by your employer to discuss such matters, then change the subject ... |
Utter mishegos.
Though you are not allowed to proselytize your beliefs or, more generally, propagate your opinions in Saudi Arabia, there is perfectly no reason why, if explicitly asked, you should deny who you are, deny your identity, deny your personhood. Your very existence cannot be allowed to become a source of "offense" and similar nonsense.
If you're a Buddhist, say so. If you're an atheist, say so (I sure did). If you're a Jew, well, maybe don't say so. Perhaps also keep your views on Islam to yourself if these are less than flattering. I don't say the latter two in order to spare anyone's delicate feelings or pander to their prejudices, but for your personal safety: You never know who you're dealing with.
I was sometimes asked about Islam, converting, the Koran, etc. I never avoided the topic or put my tail between the legs and scampered away. I explained my views, supporting them with historical facts, science, and logic. Frankly, it IS better to avoid getting into it - when I felt too tired or blase to have yet another monolog with a bunch of brainwashed kids, I just said "I will not discuss religion as it is a private matter" - but it's NOT some kind of a terribly explosive* topic that should make your cojones jump back up into your body at the slightest mention of.
* No pun intended  |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| there is perfectly no reason why, if explicitly asked, you should deny who you are, deny your identity, deny your personhood. Your very existence cannot be allowed to become a source of "offense" and similar nonsense. |
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| If you're a Jew, well, maybe don't say so. |
Aha, so you do draw the line somewhere! Well, other people draw their own lines at different places.
BTW, while politically speaking being a Jew here is worse than being an atheist, however, being an atheist is far worse morally and intellectually than being a Jew to regular Saudis. At least if you are a Jew you belong to the People of the Book. Atheism on the other hand, is quite abhorrent, weird, and inexplicable to most Saudis. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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During my time in Saudi, the primary cause of teachers having to "leave on short notice" was a lack of discretion regarding some aspect of their "personal lives."
If you're wise, you'll keep your personal life very private.
Regards,
John |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Listing a Religion on Forms |
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| mashkif wrote: |
I explained my views, supporting them with historical facts, science, and logic.
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Really! I assume they took they were very objective about it. If I was to tell them I was Jewish they would probably be objective about that also. |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Dear trapezius,
After all, how relevant would knowing at least something about Islam be to people teaching EFL in Saudi?
Regards,
John
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Dear John,
After all, my sentiments exactly.
Regards,
Rollingk
I suspect everyone understands that we need a bit of knowledge about Islam, and I certainly never meant to discredit Trap's synopsis of a part of it. I merely wanted to giggle a bit about the general tenor of the atheists-equals-terrorists paradigm, and all the other related nonsense that goes with it here. This I believe was the subject of the OP.
Jumping to conclusions, particularly negative ones, really sucks. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Dear rollingk,
"Goodness what a lot to get thru. Can we now talk about the pressing issues that bind us all, like sorcerers, jinns and atheists."
Not much of a jump, I'd say. Maybe a teeny hop.
" I certainly never meant to discredit Trap's synopsis of a part of it."
Trap'll undoubtedly be relieved to learn that.
(trapezius: "Exactly John Wink")
Regards,
John |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Exactly John |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| trapezius wrote: |
| Quote: |
| there is perfectly no reason why, if explicitly asked, you should deny who you are, deny your identity, deny your personhood. Your very existence cannot be allowed to become a source of "offense" and similar nonsense. |
| Quote: |
| If you're a Jew, well, maybe don't say so. |
Aha, so you do draw the line somewhere! Well, other people draw their own lines at different places.
BTW, while politically speaking being a Jew here is worse than being an atheist, however, being an atheist is far worse morally and intellectually than being a Jew to regular Saudis. At least if you are a Jew you belong to the People of the Book. Atheism on the other hand, is quite abhorrent, weird, and inexplicable to most Saudis. |
Yes, I do; if you had bothered to quote the rest, you would have seen why. I would keep it quiet out of fears for my personal security, not some preposterous, misguided attempt at "cultural sensitivity."
And yes, you're right about atheism. I think I may have written this elsewhere, but many Saudis consider atheism to be nothing short of a mental illness. Nonetheless, I did not deem it necessary to try to pass myself off as a Christian just to shield their delicate sensibilities from being exposed to the presence of an atheist. If they asked me, I told them. If they asked me to explain, I explained. I did not get involved in theological discourses - though I could have wiped the floor with them if I had, because almost none of them knows jack about the early Islamic history - but I see no reason to deny who you are.
I remember one time the faculty was having a discussion about Christmas and a question was put forward: "How should you rejoin if a student asks what you do for Christmas?" One guy said: "Oh, I would never say I go to mass!" I mean, come on. You have got to be !@#$ing me. |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Let me get this straight... just being a member of the 'group' ensures one gets into heaven? So there is no need to worry about how one actually lives during this lifetime... membership is the key? Seems to good to be true.
Yeah, I know...read the fine print...the devil's in the details... |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Well no, there are many Muslims (big majority) who will go to Hell, Islam says that as well. They will spend varying times in Hell according to their misdeeds, and then eventually be sent to Heaven. |
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nickelgoat
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Where in the world is nickelgoat?
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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.....
Last edited by nickelgoat on Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:06 am; edited 2 times in total |
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