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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mashkif wrote: |
Applied linguistics, computer science, and business administration. No, I'm not lying, and no, I did not get them "online."
It's also beside the point. You're correct when you say "When you are confronted with certain situations in the classroom it's good to have an arsenal of methods which can help you solve a problem," but a "humble" C.E.L.T.A. will equip you with such an arsenal at least as well (in fact, better, because you will get to practice it in a real classroom) than any master's.
Put it this way: You can read about bicycles at great length. You can know the physics and mechanics of it inside-out. But until you get in the saddle, you're scarcely any better or worse rider than someone who never saw a bike except in a picture. Teaching is a vocational skill, not a knowledge: It is honed far and away principally through practice, not learning ABOUT it. |
Then why did you pursue a degree since you seem to think the "humble" CELTA would have prepared you for an arsenal to teach and manage the classroom more than any MA could? (By the way, my MAT included a semester-long teaching practicum.)
| and wrote: |
Reminds me of an argument I once had about business faculty needing to have a terminal degree (i.e. Ph.D.). I asked them who they'd rather have teaching business majors: Some guy who spent a decade jacking off on a bunch of "models" and "theories" and who churned out three dozen articles and five books on it, or a guy who may have been a college dropout but successfully led a huge global enterprise for a decade (e.g. Steve Jobs).
The same applies to language teaching. |
Apples-n-oranges---teaching language skills is not the same as teaching content knowledge (e.g., business courses), which ironically, you clearly stated in your previous post.
You're vacillating between a grad degree shouldn't be required to an MA in Applied Ling is superior over an MA in TESOL to nothing beats an entry-level qualification like a CELTA. The problem with your argument is that you're not looking at the big picture---that a combination of education, practical training, prior work experience, and life experiences all factor into teaching and are considered by employers to be a predictor of the success of the teacher. So how much weight should each individual skill, knowledge, or ability be given? According to you, the "humble" CELTA alone should do the trick, especially since it trumps even a master's degree. |
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cultofpersonality
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Mashkif
Would you trust a traditional doctor who didn't go to grad school even though he had the skills?
Ultimately, being a competent doctor comes down to skill. However they rely on knowledge that they have previously learned to perform an operation. The skill utilises knowledge.
I agree, MA TESOL may not equip you with the skills necessary to be an effective teacher, but it can give you knowledge of a range of skills and techniques that you can use to become a successful teacher.
Of course, the great teacher in my experience, is experience. There are things you learn on the job that are invaluable.
During times of self-reflection, I do look at things that I have been told or learned from other teachers and then I seek to implement it in my next practice. Equipping the mental reservoir can be helpful. |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| Then why did you pursue a degree since you seem to think the "humble" CELTA would have prepared you for an arsenal to teach and manage the classroom more than any MA could? (By the way, my MAT included a semester-long teaching practicum.) |
Because it was a requirement by my employer. I did it to get and keep the job, I don't regret doing it, but it didn't teach me anything of practical use in the classroom that I'd not already learned as part of the Trinity Certification course.
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| and wrote: |
Reminds me of an argument I once had about business faculty needing to have a terminal degree (i.e. Ph.D.). I asked them who they'd rather have teaching business majors: Some guy who spent a decade jacking off on a bunch of "models" and "theories" and who churned out three dozen articles and five books on it, or a guy who may have been a college dropout but successfully led a huge global enterprise for a decade (e.g. Steve Jobs).
The same applies to language teaching. |
Apples-n-oranges---teaching language skills is not the same as teaching content knowledge (e.g., business courses), which ironically, you clearly stated in your previous post. |
We are not talking about learning skills- vs. content-based subjects, but about teaching. Regardless of the type of subject, teaching necessitates primarily possessing a vocational skill, rather than possessing a bank of knowledge. You need to have knowledge of the subject matter, but not necessarily knowledge of theory of teaching.
| Quote: |
| You're vacillating between a grad degree shouldn't be required to an MA in Applied Ling is superior over an MA in TESOL to nothing beats an entry-level qualification like a CELTA. The problem with your argument is that you're not looking at the big picture---that a combination of education, practical training, prior work experience, and life experiences all factor into teaching and are considered by employers to be a predictor of the success of the teacher. So how much weight should each individual skill, knowledge, or ability be given? According to you, the "humble" CELTA alone should do the trick, especially since it trumps even a master's degree. |
I'm not vacillating at all; perhaps you're (deliberately?) misunderstanding me, quite possibly because you have an ax to grind. My points are very simple, to wit:
* C.E.L.T.A./Trinity provides sufficient theoretical pedagogical and methodological bases; everything else is (or should be) experience.
* A graduate degree to learn more in-depth theoretical pedagogy and methodology does not enhance one's effectiveness in the classroom, and is hence futile from that perspective. (Of course, one may wish to pursue such a course out of personal curiosity, and there is nothing wrong with that.)
* Pursuant to the above and owing to the fact that employers do for the most mandate a master's degree, I value a graduate degree in applied linguistics more than one in T.E.F.L. because the former endows one with knowledge that goes beyond the unnecessary type detailed in the previous point.
As far as the big picture, you're right and I subscribe to it completely. My main (really, only) beef is with the value of "master's degree in T.E.F.L." I know you don't wan to hear it, and "sorry," but I find it to be a needless and useless qualification, especially if it does not have a practical component. If it does, then the practical part is worth ten times the theoretical section.
Anyway, we are going around in circles here. You stated your view, I stated mine, good luck to both of us, fist-bump, have a nice day. |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| cultofpersonality wrote: |
Mashkif
Would you trust a traditional doctor who didn't go to grad school even though he had the skills? |
Well, call me crazy, but I most probably WOULD trust someone who had a proven track-record over someone who just came out of medical school.
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| [....]I agree, MA TESOL may not equip you with the skills necessary to be an effective teacher, but it can give you knowledge of a range of skills and techniques that you can use to become a successful teacher.[...] |
It does. But so does a C.E.L.T.A. And the degree to which a C.E.L.T.A. does it is, in my view, sufficient. There is no need to do in-depth theoretical analyses of the skills and techniques; learn about them (in C.E.L.T.A.) and go into a classroom to practice them and see what actually works. |
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123Loto
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:27 am Post subject: |
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The CELTA is very basic, with a roughly 90% pass rate (including those who drop out of their own accord) and will, also, not guarantee that the graduate is a "good" teacher.
I tend to agree with VS, that there are some people who are natural teachers - and therefore, there isn't a single qualification that is a "necessary" indicator of a successful educator.
That said, if you were to take 1000 people, and somehow managed to derive an experiment that correlated the qualifications of teachers to their teaching ability, some broad trends would emerge.
So, in my opinion (!), anyone who is starting out in English teaching should consider the following:
1. Do you think you will like to teach? Do you like making connections with people? Do you genuinely care about other people? (Ok, sounds a bit corny, but I stand by it - if you basically don't have much sympathy for students; then p*ss off)
2. Get a CELTA from an institution recommended to you by someone who has been there - it will provide you with a basic tool set, expose you to some teaching pressure and will let you learn a bit about yourself.
3. If possible, work at the centre that gave you the CELTA for 2 years. A good centre will place high expectations on you and put you on a very steep learning curve.
4. Do the DELTA. Do this in a centre in an entirely different part of the world with entirely different students than what you are accustomed to. You will be exposed to the value of some theory (placing it in the context of your experience and different cultural environments) and if you've chosen your centre well again, get some brilliant guidance from very highly skilled professional teacher/trainers. You will also meet the other candidates in your class and be blown away by what awesome people EFLers can be.
5. Do the MA TESOL (or linguistics, whatever). The point of this is twofold - it's valued by employers all over the world and will open doors of employment everywhere. Furthermore (and arguably more importantly), it has a magnifying effect on your teaching experience. Mashkif is, perhaps, right to say that the MA TESOL by itself will never make a newbie into a great teacher. However, I reckon it will help those who already have some teaching under their belt, as it will continue the process of reflection, experimentation and adaptation that you began with the CELTA and the DELTA.
6. If you want to add another dimension to your EFL background then consider becoming a licensed K-12 teacher. Not only is the reflective training process awesome but the skill set and methodology are completely different. Your understanding of the learning process will become even more well informed.
In my opinion, if 1000 teachers were to put themselves through these steps, the vast majority would be excellent teachers. |
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Pikgitina
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 420
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| I couldn't agree more with point number 4. |
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FrogHunter
Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Posts: 7
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| 123Loto - Its been an interesting thread, but I have to say that you have summed it up really well! |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Better yet, look at a variety of job ads in the countries and teaching situations you're interested in to see what the top employers require and use that information as a guide when determining what academic credentials and type/level of experience you need to have. Additionally, join professional organizations to stay current with teaching trends by attending seminars, workshops, focus groups sessions, etc., as well as for networking purposes. |
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cultofpersonality
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Top notch post 123Loto
I especially agreed with the last three posts. I did my PGCE first which is probably the British equivalent to K-12 as it's a British teaching licence. That course was for a year and in a secondary school you learn a lot about the teaching process and I felt that equipped me for the classroom management side of ESL/EFL. It definitely trains you to be a reflective teacher and once you do the MA you have even more tools to reflect on your teaching and that's why I feel it's useful. Teaching is a continuous learning process and you learn a new thing everyday from all kinds of people. The MA definitely opened my eyes to a lot of things in ESL/EFL, especially as I my initial teaching qualification wasn't concerned with ESL/EFL. |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| 123Loto wrote: |
| [...]So, in my opinion (!), anyone who is starting out in English teaching should consider the following:[...] |
Very good; I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote. I do have some reservations, but nothing worth extending this thread over.
It is important to note that your points are applicable to language (English, in particular) teaching ONLY. Other subjects' instructors will want to take somewhat modified routes. |
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Gulezar
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| cultofpersonality wrote: |
Top notch post 123Loto
I especially agreed with the last three posts. I did my PGCE first which is probably the British equivalent to K-12 as it's a British teaching licence. That course was for a year and in a secondary school you learn a lot about the teaching process and I felt that equipped me for the classroom management side of ESL/EFL. It definitely trains you to be a reflective teacher and once you do the MA you have even more tools to reflect on your teaching and that's why I feel it's useful. Teaching is a continuous learning process and you learn a new thing everyday from all kinds of people. The MA definitely opened my eyes to a lot of things in ESL/EFL, especially as I my initial teaching qualification wasn't concerned with ESL/EFL. |
I've been following this thread and I do believe that US and British educational systems follow slightly different tracks. I did K-12 teaching certification requirements for TESOL and and a secondary area, but these never got me into a job in the UAE. It was the Mater degree in TESOL that opened doors. Granted, the 6th grade activities were perfect for my tertiary students. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Gulezar wrote: |
| I've been following this thread and I do believe that US and British educational systems follow slightly different tracks. I did K-12 teaching certification requirements for TESOL and and a secondary area, but these never got me into a job in the UAE. It was the Mater degree in TESOL that opened doors. Granted, the 6th grade activities were perfect for my tertiary students. |
It depends on what type of job you are looking for. If you want to teach in tertiary, you need the MA. The teaching cert won't be useful. Now if you want to go the International School route, then the MA likely will be of little use, and they will want to see the K-12 teaching cert.
VS |
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