| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:07 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| mitsui wrote: |
| Ah, yes. Classic apologist line. |
Thanks for bringing that up. I do not consider myself to be an apologist, but I can see how others might.
Nor do I see myself as a cultural relativist. Rather, I see myself as acknowledging cultural autonomy. Japanese culture has different ideals and goals and so their cultural institutions are structured differently. Education is a prime example. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Black_Beer_Man wrote: |
Another thing I don't get about the Japanese is that they can't take a compliment.
In Western cultures, we do and just say "Thank you". |
By immediately accepting a compliment, you are saying that is true. For example, if someone tells you that you did a great job, and you just say "thank you", that means "yes, I did do a great job". In some cultures (probably the ones you refer to as "Western"), it's OK to imply "yes, I did do a great job" because open pride in oneself is OK. But, in Japanese culture, one is expected to be more modest. That doesn't mean that the person doesn't feel the same on the inside after receiving a compliment, just that the outward way to acknowledge it is different.
| Quote: |
And why does it seem to be taboo to tell a Japanese person walking a dog that his / her dog is cute?
I have done this a few times and the result is always that they look annoyed, say sorry to me and yank their dog lease and the poor dog gets thrown toward them. What gives!  |
Maybe it's just that Japanese people don't generally talk to strangers, so it takes them off guard. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| steki47 wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
I still think it is pointless. You don't need a separate language to show politeness. Doesn't add anything to a language, as it doesn't make anything more clear, or concise. |
And your opinion of those languages is quite important to those cultures. They really should consult you every time they want to write a dictionary or revise their languages.
I am teasing you, but not attacking you per set. To be frank,I find this attitude to reek of colonialism/Maoism/white supremacy in that we come into a society and start making harsh judgments of their language/culture based on our views and ideals.
Shoe on the other foot, I remember when Ishihara made some harsh criticisms of the French language and was largely mocked. And sued! |
As was said on page 5, keigo is used to bully your new co workers.
My wife's friends are nurses, and they complain about how the newbies don't use keigo correctly, and that they need to be harsher to them so they shape up. Yet when asked about using keigo, they say they hate using it. In fact, I don't think I've ever talked to a Japanese person who actually likes keigo. I think like working pointless amounts of OT, the Japanese are caught in a cycle that they can not break.
Look at Utada Hikaru, she used to get so much crap for not using keigo in interviews. Why pick on someone for that? It is just part of the cycle of bullying via a language. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| rxk2 wrote: |
Look at Utada Hikaru, she used to get so much crap for not using keigo in interviews. Why pick on someone for that? It is just part of the cycle of bullying via a language. |
Why did my profs correct my errors? Because English has rules and I was expected to write/speak at a certain level for an academic audience. In EFL, I should simplify my speech for students, in grad school I was chided for my simple and inappropriate vocab.
While I have enjoyed this exchange, it is getting pointless. Almost as pointless as you consider keigo to be. So let's move on to other gripes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Why are houses knocked down so much? Whether the owner dies or not, the noise is terrible. Right now two houses are being built very close to me home.
Even yesterday there was a worker, and that is not legal as it was a Sunday. No courtesy at all. Just simple noise pollution. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Look at Utada Hikaru, she used to get so much crap for not using keigo in interviews. Why pick on someone for that? It is just part of the cycle of bullying via a language. |
Plenty of celebrities in Britain get crap for speaking roughly, swearing or being politically incorrect.
| Quote: |
I find this attitude to reek of colonialism/Maoism/white supremacy in that we come into a society and start making harsh judgments of their language/culture based on our views and ideals.
|
Here, here! Imagine there's some forum on the interwebs frequented by Chinese teachers in the UK, (let's call it Wong's CFL tea house for arguments sake), and that they are currently discussing the things that annoy them about culture in the UK.
One of the biggest gripes they have is the way we distinguish between the past, present and future tenses because it breeds a mentality that these states are all serperate and unrelated, thereby encouraging people to live recklessly in the moment and not plan for their future.
The second gripe they have is the use of Mr and Mrs, because this forces the speaker to be constantly thinking about which sex everyone is and address men and women differently. This is often used to bully the opposite sex. Don't believe me, well my wife's sister's friend said as much and she's always complaining about sexism in the workplace.
Why don't these westerners just get rid of this rubbish? I've never heard a British person say that they like the different tenses, nor have I ever heard anyone here stand up and say "I love the way we have a seperate word for addressing a man and a woman!". I think like binge drinking and fighting, the British are just stuck in a cycle that they cannot break...pitiful idiots. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
It was fascinating in the UK to discuss the concept of Political Correctness. For example to explain that the title "housewife" was considered
unacceptable by a lot of people now and to get the reply "but I AM a housewife".
We discussed this a lot and the DOS would usually say the correct way was to give the students the tools that they need to discuss their own cultures as opposed to teaching them what was current under our own political trends.
Interesting discussion nonetheless. Id quite like to do a class about the recent argument about the word "bossy"
Although I guess out of all the complaints about the people and language (a hell of a lot!) by far the most common was how rarely English was uniform and standard. So perhaps the opposite of Japanese? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry, double post.
Last edited by steki47 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RM1983 wrote: |
It was fascinating in the UK to discuss the concept of Political Correctness. For example to explain that the title "housewife" was considered
unacceptable by a lot of people now and to get the reply "but I AM a housewife". |
Likewise in the US with the proper terms for addressing people of African descent. "Colored", "Negro", "black" to "African-American". Some individuals in that demographic category stated they did not like the latter term as they did not identify as "African" and saw themselves as "black Americans". Other strongly identified with their African ancestry, regardless of their time in the US (or little time most of them have actually spent in Africa).
Much of it struck me as quibbling, but I am not looking to purposefully offend, so I adjust my speech accordingly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Similarly, I had to explain that calling an Asian person "yellow" was racist.....to Asian people. One couldnt understand it because she said her skin was kind of yellow. Bit awkward that was.
Also, students got very annoyed at British people saying please and thank you all the time. Particularly to the bus driver. More of a culture point than a language point but there you go. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RM1983 wrote: |
| Similarly, I had to explain that calling an Asian person "yellow" was racist.....to Asian people. One couldnt understand it because she said her skin was kind of yellow. Bit awkward that was. |
I had an awkward situation when we sang the John Lennon Christmas song in which he talks about "yellow" people.
White and Black are acceptable terms, but yellow and brown are typically rude when used to describe people. Except when John Lennon sings it.
Try explaining that to a bunch of Japanese teens! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I'd have said he was talking about people with jaundice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RM1983 wrote: |
Also, students got very annoyed at British people saying please and thank you all the time. Particularly to the bus driver. More of a culture point than a language point but there you go. |
One of my Japanese students happened to be on the same bus as me once and was horrified when I said thanks to the driver as I got off (in English, and done entirely without thinking). I hadn't realised it was a problem but I tried not to do it after that. However, it's so ingrained it did used to slip out sometimes. Then I had to bite my tongue so as not to apologise for saying thank you! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| HLJHLJ wrote: |
| RM1983 wrote: |
Also, students got very annoyed at British people saying please and thank you all the time. Particularly to the bus driver. More of a culture point than a language point but there you go. |
One of my Japanese students happened to be on the same bus as me once and was horrified when I said thanks to the driver as I got off (in English, and done entirely without thinking). I hadn't realised it was a problem but I tried not to do it after that. However, it's so ingrained it did used to slip out sometimes. Then I had to bite my tongue so as not to apologise for saying thank you! |
Me too. And any time I interact with waiting staff. Also still have problems just calling them over |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RM1983 wrote: |
| Me too. And any time I interact with waiting staff. Also still have problems just calling them over |
すみませんんんんんんんんんん！
I could never bring myself to doing that either. I would just get up and go over to the waitress. No sweat.
Haha, you're supposed to be quiet on the buses and trains but you can yell at the top of your lungs in the restaurant to call over the waitress.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
