Job Discussion Forums

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

What ?

johnslat · Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:59 am Post subject:

Dear scot47,

I'm glad to see you've eschewed irrelevance and are focusing, laser-like, on the thread's topic once again.

M'aidez Very Happy

Regards,
John

Sirens of Cyprus · Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 255

Sashadroogie · Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject:

Ouch! Yip, that sounds on the harsh side. I mean if all the people who don't know how to use metalanguage were to suddenly be barred from teaching, there'd be a major drop off in postings on Dave's Very Happy

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject:

Anyone fancy explaining quite why

You don't mind _me_ calling you Tony, do you?
You don't mind _my_ calling you Tony, do you?

are both fine with the grammar (and Amazon reviewer) but the 'his' in

She caught _him_ breaking into her car
*She caught_his_breaking into her car

isn't? (Cf: She caught his breaking into her car on camera LOL). Or is Cowan's apparent fudgy forcing ("These are all gerunds, and the verbs that can be followed only by non-possessive/objective forms are mere exceptions") actually helpful IYHOs? (Like I say, I guess treating all these -ings the same is one way of also dealing with complex transitives~O/S "pivots" at the same time. I'm not sure it's absolutely the RIGHT way, though!).

johnslat · Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject:

Dear fluffyhamster,

Wouldn't the difference depend on where the emphasis is placed?

You don't mind _me_ calling you Tony, do you? (On "me" - others call you that, so is it OK for me to, too?

You don't mind _my_ calling you Tony, do you? (On "calling")

She caught _him_ breaking into her car
*She caught_his_breaking into her car (Your added "on camera" changes the context, and consequently, the meaning and grammar are changed)

Regards,
John

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:27 pm Post subject:

I added the camera bit for contrast, to hopefully try to help make things clearer for anyone suffering nosebleeds. Cf: the Cf LOL. Agree with the possible emphases, similar stuff here:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?p=43551#43551

JN · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 214

@ Sirens of Cyprus: The reason I think my student wouldn't understand the whole grammar explanation from the posts here is because her English is not that advanced. I personally don't think that students are all that interested in knowing the correct grammar terms. I have had a couple of students in the past that were interested in delving into grammar a bit, but most just want to speak better at a job or when they go on vacation.

Perhaps you have an easy explanation I could give to this student?

@ Fluffy, no problem with the "let's", I just applied it to the "we can."

I just decided to give my student some other examples with get, such as "get my car repaired" and "get a key made." She was more or less satisfied.

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 7:08 pm Post subject:

@Sirens: I was toying with the idea of mentioning causatives, but I was under the impression (in ELT, anyway) that they involved "objects" (things acted upon) e.g. We've had the house painted; You should get that grammar book refunded. EDIT: Ah, you've deleted your post and the Wiki link, no worries!

@JN: You're in China, right? Perhaps just use a bilingualized (E-E-C) dictionary LOL.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english-chinese-simplified/get_4

JN · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 214

Fluffy, I'm actually in Germany, but if I were in China, how would the bilingualized dictionary help? Do you just mean it would give her a good translation?

In German there is the same translation for we can get started and we can start, so translating it doesn't help.

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:32 pm Post subject:

Those particular translations might be very similar or identical, but such a dictionary should help the student get their head around get generally, geddit? Laughing

I mean, not all the CALD examples are mere variations on or "minimal grammar pairs" for "can start". Smile

(Cue canned laughter). Anyway, it's a shame the German dictionary also available there from Cambridge only supplies glosses for its sense-header short definitions, but no translations for its actual example sentences.

GambateBingBangBOOM · Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 2021 Location: Japan

JN · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 214

Also, if your student isn't really asking, "why is this sentence present?" but actually, "Why isn't this sentence past?" then the simple answer is that if it were a past tense sentence, it would have begun with "could" or "was able to" instead of "can." [/quote] (I couldn't figure out how quote your response GambateBingBangBOOM)

Anyway, thanks for these great simple answers. I think she did really want to know why it isn't past tense.

johnslat · Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:19 pm Post subject:

Dear JN,

Actually "could" could be used in that sentence - with the meaning of a suggestion, a choice.

We could get started.

"What do you want to do now?"

"Perhaps we could get started or we could waste some more time arguing about why 'Perhaps we can get started' is in the present tense."
Very Happy

Regards,
John

JN · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 214

Well, John, I suppose we could continue arguing (Is that what we have been doing?), but then perhaps Oxford would like to become involved, as they are the ones that published Business Result, which is where the sentence Perhaps we can get started. came from.