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Opinions of Salary Expectations Please
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nomad soul

Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject:

mashkif wrote:

SENTINEL33 wrote:

mashkif wrote:

I will submit that employers willing to pay even SAR15,000 to someone to spend 20 hrs./wk. to teach a bunch of foundation students how to string together sentences and paragraphs are out of their freaking minds. "Sorry," but such knowledge imparted over such hours is not worth that amount, let alone the higher figures bandied about here in addition to the "bennies." .

[...]Having said that, mashkif should understand that "teachers" in the Gulf area command outrageous salaries not because we "teach" but because we're paid to "keep 'em off the streets". We are more like policemen or guards or "social workers" entertaining our clients at penitentiaries.

Universities in this part of the world are really "social welfare" institutions whose sole purpose is to "keep 'em down". Research? Don't make me laugh.[...]

Hmm, good point. I hadn't thought of that.

One person's experience in this region certainly isn't indicative of everyone else's. Therefore, once again, SENTINEL33 speaks about his specific teaching environment (presumably in Bahrain) as well as his own personal feelings about teaching in general. His experience comes no where close to describing my teaching situation with my female Saudi students who were on a science and medical track and quite serious about learning English.

mashkif

Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:26 am Post subject:

scot47 wrote:

I have met some of these guys with PhDs in TEFLOLOGY. Wow !

That seems to be where it's headed though. These days every foofi and zhuzhi has a master's in something or other. It's only a matter of time before really standing out will require a doctoral degree. And once Ph.Ds in T.E.F.L. and the like begin proliferating, that'll be the end of that qualification.

As far as I'm concerned, only people who split an atom or discover the cure for a terminal disease deserve a Ph.D. Everything else is just whacking off for 3-5 years about nothing. I mean, a doctorate in comparative phonology? A doctorate in assessment methodology? Puh-lease.

Last edited by mashkif on Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:43 am; edited 1 time in total

mashkif

Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:28 am Post subject:

nomad soul wrote:

mashkif wrote:

SENTINEL33 wrote:

Hmm, good point. I hadn't thought of that.

No doubt. However, on the whole, it tends to the true. Your experience would be considered an exception rather than the rule by most people who have experienced the higher education environment in the G.C.C. area.

mashkif

Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:41 am Post subject:

Chinaski wrote:

[...]Just the fact that you think foundations students are just getting taught to "string together sentences and paragraphs" says something.

Are you familiar with good foundations programs?

And how much do you think teachers in such programs should get paid, out of curiosity?

$30,000-$40,000, plus housing, plus airtickets, plus basic health insurance. IF even that. Sorry.

Quote:

The qualifications the O.P. lists are actually pretty entry-level.

Oh, boy...I am going to have to disagree here. People can break into the Middle East with a BA+CELTA+ a couple years...but they won't make much.

Well, yes, so you - with a couple of years of post-master's experience and no CELTA - can hardly expect to be raking in close to six-digit sums!

Quote:

Employers look at post-certification or post-relevant-master's experience,...

Don't definitively state something as being true when it is not.

It rather is unless (1) they are desperate for "teachers," or (2) you have some particular set of skills or talents. Unless you have been holding back on us, I'm going to surmise the latter does not apply, whereas in the case of the former, good luck getting even $40,000.

Quote:

The O.P. appears to have no particular extraordinary skills. He can teach syntax and paragraph-writing. Big deal. So can any of the dime-a-dozen Trinity TESOL or CELTA newly-certificated "teachers."

I'd love to watch that class.

I am not saying it would be done well. I am, however, implying that employers do not particularly care. Being able to teach writing well does...not...set...you...apart, certainly not to a degree of expecting some literally fantastic figures being thrown your way!

Quote:

If I can do a quick character assessment, you sound like someone who has no clue what goes on in foundations programs. Without them, "academics" wouldn't have many students. You couldn't unteach them anything as you could not communicate with them in any way. Half of the students that you did get probably wouldn't show up to class, and the other half wouldn't bring pens, pencils, submit homework, turn their phones off, stop talking, or sit still, etc.

"Academics", like TEFL'ers Razz

, also have a distinct whiff about them. Many think that they are better than everyone else...when they often have no more qualifications in their own field. Many did not go to school for any longer than the lowly TEFL'er. They also have a highly inflated sense of what THEY are worth.

Again, without foundations programs teachers, they wouldn't have very many students to teach.

There is a lot of truth in what you say; however, you pretty much defeat your own argument here. You teach them to communicate to some level in English, and you train them to come more-or-less on time with some or most of the requisite equipment. And you think that is worth $80,000+ net!!?

wood112

Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 13

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:09 am Post subject:

deleted Last edited by wood112 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

nomad soul

Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:51 am Post subject:

wood112 wrote:

...for a university EFL position, my former employer in Korea would go with a doctorate over ma any day of the week for very valid reasons. I'm told the uni scene in UAE is the same.

For this region, a PhD in your field of expertise is more likely to teach linguistics or a similar subject in an undergrad or grad degree academic program, and obviously, to also conduct research. The PhD itself doesn't automatically qualify for EFL teaching positions because it's theoretic/research based. Plus, you'll rarely see a PhD indicated on a Gulf job ad for unversity EFL/prep year instructors; those positions target teachers with TESOL-related MAs. Yet, there are EFL teachers who hold a PhD in TESOL, Language Education, etc.; however, they're likely to do double duty by teaching in a BA or MA TESOL degree program as well.

I'm curious as to why a doctorate would be preferred over an MA for a university EFL teaching position. What are those valid reasons?

scot47

Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:01 pm Post subject:

Social Workers and Prison Guards can get PhD's, why not EFL teachers ?

wood112

Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 13

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject:

deleted Last edited by wood112 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

wood112

Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 13

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject:

deleted Last edited by wood112 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

mashkif

Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:29 pm Post subject:

wood112 wrote:

[...]I think people here misunderstand what a 'Phd in TESOLogology' is (there's no such thing). What the degree(s) is about is to gain a good understanding of the research and academics that underpins our field and to contribute to said base of desired. To that end, you study quant./qual. methods, the corresponding philosophical underpinnings of research (ontology and epistemology) and you get deeper into theoretical and applied linguistics than the MA -- just to state it briefly.

Whatever gods may be, help us all. Does an area (I cannot bring myself to call it an "academic discipline," whether jointly or severally) such as T.E.F.L. or linguistics REALLY require in-depth research by thousands of people over the course of years if not decades!?! The only facet of the wider discipline I can think of that might be worthy of doctoral studies would be knowledge acquisition and the corresponding neural mapping. The rest is a bunch of nonsense a la the above: Folderol expressed in sesquipedalian argot to befuddle the foe.

Decades of "research" into the pedagogy and methodology of language acquisition and teaching, and the result? Whether through memorization or active usage, to learn a language you have to sit your ass down on a frequent and regular basis, and learn the vocabulary and the rules. Period. Yeah, let's now write a 100,000-word "dissertation" on it. Oy vey!

It all reminds me of those bored and/or failed academics who are pressured to churn out "research" (the old "publish or perish" dilemma), so they come up with multifarious facocta "theories" and "models."

A: "Hey everyone, how's this for a formalization of an 'objective'? An objective should be 'SMART,' viz, 'specific,' 'measurable,' [etc.]"
Then some other loser comes along and writes a "research paper" along the lines of:

B: "Oh no, no, no: An objective should be 'SMART-ER,' i.e. add 'exponential' and 'robust.'"
Then a third one chimes in:

C: "Both you guys are full of !@#$: An objective should be 'CLEVER': 'concise,' 'leveraged,' 'exceptional,' [etc.]"

What does it all contribute to the corpus of human knowledge? Jack diddly squat. Meanwhile, the rest of us - faculty and students - have to read, learn, assess, and grade all that crap.

Anyway, I digressed Smile

veiledsentiments

Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject:

wood112 wrote:

...my former employer in Korea would go with a doctorate over ma any day of the week for very valid reasons. I'm told the uni scene in UAE is the same.

Not true with a very few exceptions. As Nomad said, they might hire one to teach in content, but NOT to teach Foundations. They don't want to pay the salary for a PhD to teach entry students S/V agreement...

From what I have seen, if there are any PhD holders in Foundations, they are non-native speakers who have it because back "home" having a PhD is status.

Any native speakers working on PhDs were doing so to get out of the Gulf.

VS

nomad soul

Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject:

wood112 wrote:

Speaking from my experience in the Korean university EFL realm:

1 -- A gatekeeper (better than tossing a coin if 2 candidates are equal save one as a doctorate)

2 -- doctorate holders tend to be better writings and have a better vocabulary and EAP is a focal point in Korea (not always of course)

3 -- better likelihood of publishing and being academically active and therefore enhancing employer's image.

I can see the benefit of a doctorate in regard to your last statement about publishing, being active in academia, etc. But for your first point, are you saying that a doctorate in anything would trump an MA TESOL for a TEFL position? And I completely disagree about doctorate holders having a higher level of writing skills as well as a stronger vocabulary; that could be said for just about anyone with a uni degree who reads and writes extensively. Plus, the better university intensive English programs (including those in the US) mostly have MA holders teaching EAP courses.

Chinaski

Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 54

Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject:

mashkif wrote:

30,000-$40,000, plus housing, plus airtickets, plus basic health insurance. IF even that. Sorry.

If others want to work for that they can.

Quote:

Well, yes, so you - with a couple of years of post-master's experience and no CELTA - can hardly expect to be raking in close to six-digit sums!

You are very wrong about my qualifications.

Apart from that, I have 4 friends now on $80,90,90, and 108,000 USD a year packages already, and their qualifications are not better than mine.

I have a lot more information than when I first posted and there is very good money out there.

Actually, if I know then what I know now, I would not have even needed to post the question.

Quote:

Why make yourself look foolish. I am already well (well) above the number you just posted.

You come across as very petty and misinformed.

Quote:

Again, where do you get your information?

Look at the figures I quoted above. I know people making this money (all hired after I initially posted). These are not numbers that unicorns came up with but are real attainable figures.

And yes, their employers do expect them to teach well. Mine expects me to teach well also.

Quote:

I certainly didn't defeat my own argument.

Without foundations programs there would be just a small portion of students for undergraduate professors to teach. How much do you think they would then make when they have no students to teach? Wink

Again, you don't seem very informed about foundations programs, their worth, and salaries in Saudi (and elsewhere) that are actually attainable by people who are motivated to chase them.

Are average salaries much lower...yes. But I don't have an average salary now and don't want one in the future. That's why I started this thread...

scot47

Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject:

Chinaski, relax. Use measured tones ! We KNOW you are on MEGABUCKS.

Chinaski

Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 54

Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject:

^ Don't be silly. But I don't like people talking out of their wazoo. As before, I know what salary I can expect now if I take my time. Others who say the types of salaries that I am after don't exist are just plain wrong and their lack of knowledge is a type of thread pollution. The fact is that SOME people are on "megabucks", and others on the thread have confirmed it. I want it and I'll get it.

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